Ra / ppl?

[duncan_bayne]

Hi All,

 

So I'm looking to get back into flight training again - I haven't flown since early 2008, my last flight being (remedial) circuits in an EVSS (after bending one).

 

I'm looking for a flight school in Melbourne that does ab-initio training, preferably with experienced instructors. Having flown with Grade 3 instructors and a CFI, I'm very keen to find the most experienced instructor I can afford; even I could tell the difference between the two in terms of high-quality constructive criticism. I felt like I was learning a lot more.

 

Getting picky, I'd ideally like to train in a taildragger. I've spoken with a few experienced pilots who have opined that training on a taildragger is harder, but more rewarding. I'd also like to train somewhere that offers something like RBFT's Emergency Manoeuvre Training.

 

Ultimately - long term - my goal is to be able to fly aerobatic & touring aircraft (e.g. Cherokee Six). But I wonder ... would I be better off starting with an RA licence, then progressing to a PPL with the relevant endorsements? Or should I continue my PPL? Is it even possible to do an EMT course under the auspices of RA-Aus? I gather recreational aircraft are prohibited from aerobatics.

 

Any thoughts, suggestions, or recommendations would be greatly appreciated ...

 

Yours,

 

Duncan Bayne

 

 

[FlyingVizsla]

Hi Duncan,

 

I fly tricycle u/c but my husband flies taildraggers and believes they make you a better pilot because they can come back to bite quickly and you learn to keep well ahead of the game.

 

Unfortunately taildraggers and instructors experienced on them are not as readily available. You may need to shop around to find a school and instructor(s) that suit you. We all learn differently and an instructor who is comfortable with your learning style and whom you like will get you there quicker.

 

Regards

 

Sue

 

 

[XP503]

Cherokee Six's are aerobatic now?

 

Wow.

 

 

[duncan_bayne]

Cherokee Six's are aerobatic now?Wow.

All aircraft are aerobatic. Once

 

Seriously, I'm envisioning hiring something like a Cherokee Six to go daytripping with family, and on other days something other than a Cherokee Six ... say an Airtourer ... for aerobatics.

 

 

[Guest rocketdriver]

A fuel injected Decathalon is a pretty nice aeroplane .....

 

 

[turboplanner]

edited post xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx

 

 

[motzartmerv]

Duncan. I ALWAYS recommend going the RAA route first up. The only circumstance where its not advisable is when doing the 150 hour GST free commercial licence, as RAA hours don't count towards it.

 

There are 2 main reasons I believe its a good way to go.

 

1. Affordability. (much cheaper to learn in RaAus acft)

 

2. Stick and rudder flying skills. Lighter aircraft are more demanding on the pilot to keep them happy. Learning to fly in these acft gives you hands on flying skills that will assist you in any form of flying you choose to do later on.

 

There is no "real" EMT in raaus, you can do advanced sequences, but we are bound by strict rules with regard to bank and pitch angles. And of course, NO SPINNING.

 

I don't live in melbourne, so I can't recommend a school that could provide all the services you are seeking.

 

You are well within your rights to insist on a certain instructor, its your money after all. Normally the rate is the same regardless of weather or no the instructor is grade 3 or a CFI.

 

Tail dragger training is defiantly a little more challenging, and therefor rewarding in some sense. A lot of aerobatic aircraft are taildraggers, pitts etc, so would be advantageous for your future plans.

 

It sounds like you have a well mapped out plan for what you want from your licence.

 

A conversion from RAA lioc to PPL is no big deal, especially considering you would already have some of the paperwork, ie spl etc.

 

Good luck, and enjoy.:thumb_up:

 

 

[djpacro]

chat & tour

 

Duncan, we're not far from each other - I'd be happy to give you a partial tour of Moorabbin and introduce you to some of the senior instructors at a few different schools. Plenty of Decathlons however an expensive solution for ab initio - talk to the handful of instructors at a few different schools there who would consider doing it. Taking Sue's point about instructors - I agree that is important.

 

Also, from where you live there is (in alphabetical order only) Coldstream, Lilydale and Tooradin within easy reach. Maybe all worth a look. Tyabb a bit further away as turbo suggested.

 

Latrobe Valley is quite a bit further but I know some who drive that far (compare the rates) - pluses and minuses but could very well be what you want. It is one place this side of town where you could learn in a taildragger with a Gr 1 instructor.

 

Good to see that you're seeking information as there are lots of factors in your decision. Were you close to GFPT?

 

 

[poteroo]

Best economy................ RAA, then convert

 

Easiest to learn on.......... low wing, nosewheel

 

All the GA schools that I know of, who have tried the tailwheel x ab initio training approach, have long since given up. It very much limits the weather that you can be sent solo in. Why make things harder than they need be?

 

Tailwheel is a good post certificate/licence 'add on' skill - when you are able to focus solely on the important aspects of handling the tailwheel.

 

My humble opinion only.

 

happy days,

 

 

[Mazda]

Duncan my suggestion is to PM DJPacro. He's an experienced Victorian aerobatic instructor who can you train in Decathlons, an Airtourer (the best aircraft ever made ;)) and provide advice on RA and GA.

 

I'm not from Victoria but can advise that Lilydale has a school with RA and GA, from Jabirus to a 160hp CSU Airtourer.

 

On tailwheel training, it takes about the same number of hours to go solo in a tailwheel aircraft as a nosewheel aircraft. They are just different and you are right that tailwheel training provides you with good skills.

 

I agree EMT type training and aeros is invaluable. You would have to do that in a GA aircraft. Once again, I encourage you to contact DJPacro for advice on options available in Melbourne.

 

 

[GraemeK]

RA tailwheel instruction is pretty limited in Melbourne I think.

 

I know some of the Lilydale guys are looking seriously at it - first find a suitable trainer ......

 

 

[Guest Walter Buschor]

Hi Duncan,

 

what about a Drifter. People who fly them rave about them! Perhaps there is someone with an old Piper Cub or a Lightwing. All are RAA and would I'm sure be great for initial training.

 

Good luck no matter what you choose to learn in as there is fun in spades regardless of what you choose to fly.

 

fly safe

 

Walter

 

 

[Tomo]

G'day Duncan, great to hear you getting back into it.

 

As a person who went through all these planning stages like you're doing now - RaAus vs PPL, nosewheel vs Tailwheel etc... And my long term goal being a CPL

 

I, in the end chose to go RaAus, in a Drifter aircraft.

 

Reasons were; I wanted to get in the air asap, and saving large amounts (required for GA) takes time, and my air experience vs cost was going to be very high in GA.

 

GA school was further away from where I lived, though that wasn't really a huge problem, just an inconvenience - resulting in more cost.

 

Learning to fly in a low wing nosewheel aircraft, that basically 'flew itself' was no real challenge, and I wouldn't get the finesse of being able to operate smaller aircraft.

 

As I've already said, the cost, fuel expense, and general running cost of GA aircraft for just 'air experience' was very high.

 

Once I decided I'd go RaAus, I then had to choose between a Jabiru, or Drifter for my training, I was skeptical about the drifter, I liked the Jabiru - speed, comfy cabin, looks nice etc... it looked more like the aircraft I wanted to fly in the long run down the track. (and my Dad didn't like the look of the drifter, to flimsy!)

 

But the instructor said, "how about we go for a flight in the Drifter and see what you reckon then." So I did, and fell in love with it straight away, (as do people who fly in them, rather than sit around thinking its bad :) ) Including my dad... and whoever else I've converted!

 

It was stick and rudder flying, it was good fun, you had to control the thing everywhere, not just sit back and twiddle this and move that every now and then (though it gets a bit like that on a calm morning!)

 

The Drifter is a great learning to fly aircraft, it isn't a (get out there and bite you tailwheel aircraft) but it is a tailwheel, and great one for learning the difference, it will spin you in a circle on take off if you aren't used to using rudders ;) the rudders take on a whole new meaning.

 

So the moral to the story is, I did RaAus because I can get more air experience for the money (experience is the one that will save you one day when in trouble, the credentials won't). They teach you to fly, with finesse.

 

I will be converting to GA sometime this yr, but I will always be flying Ra aircraft till the day I die. My Aunties sisters husband is capt'n of a 747, but he loves it when he can get in a Jab or something for some 'real flying' as he calls it.

 

You can do the PPL theory for RaAus also (the BAK), one way to kill two birds with one stone.

 

Hope that helps, (just noticed, its a rather long post... sorry)

 

 

[wags]

Do PPL exams if you want to go beyond RAAus licence

 

You can do the PPL theory for RAAus also (the BAK), one way to kill two birds with one stone.

As Tommo says do the PPL exams if you have any thought of continuing to PPL should you decide to start with RAAus. RAAus is the best and cheapest way to get to the final desired point.

 

My wife decided to get her PPL so she can go through CTA and has had to re-sit her BAK because although RAAus recognizes PPL subject passes, it doesn't work in reverse. If you are going to get up to speed for an exam make it worth the effort and do it only once. The other exams for PPL you will have to also re-sit if you choose to do only RAAus in the first instance.

[duncan_bayne]

Duncan, we're not far from each other - I'd be happy to give you a partial tour of Moorabbin and introduce you to some of the senior instructors at a few different schools. Plenty of Decathlons however an expensive solution for ab initio - talk to the handful of instructors at a few different schools there who would consider doing it. Taking Sue's point about instructors - I agree that is important.

Thanks - I'm very keen to take you up on that (PM sent).

 

Also, from where you live there is (in alphabetical order only) Coldstream, Lilydale and Tooradin within easy reach. Maybe all worth a look. Tyabb a bit further away as turbo suggested.

Yeah ... quite a few options actually. That's why I was hoping to tap into the combined wisdom of the forum members here :-)

 

Latrobe Valley is quite a bit further but I know some who drive that far (compare the rates) - pluses and minuses but could very well be what you want. It is one place this side of town where you could learn in a taildragger with a Gr 1 instructor.

It _is_ tempting ... a while back I bought my wife (CPL/H ) an aerobatic flight in a Pitts based there. Her pilot was a charming man with infectious enthusiasm (whose name I sadly forget), & IIRC he's one of the instructors. I noticed a Decathlon (I think?) taxiing out while my wife was being briefed.

 

Still, from where I live (Upwey) we're talking four hours of commuting. I tried taking a look at the info on their site, but was just greeted by a series of content-free pages like this one. I suspect they're busy working on the site.

 

Good to see that you're seeking information as there are lots of factors in your decision.

The thing I've realised is that instructor skill is so important ... I had no idea there'd be such a difference between instructors until I flew with that CFI. He was pulling me up about aspects of my flying that the other instructors hadn't so much as mentioned. I'll take hard but fair over oblivious any day of the week. Hell, I'd be happy with just plain hard - no instructor's going to be as hard as the ground

 

Were you close to GFPT?

Not very; I was getting closer to going solo. At the time I was progressing slowly because I was working two jobs, and unable to fly as regularly as I'd have liked. My plan this time around (having more time and more money) is to fly several hours every weekend, weather permitting.

 

The theory at least should be straightforward. My wife's worked as a theory instructor in the past & is happy to help me study & prepare. She's keen for me to do the CPL exams regardless of which approach I take, & from what I've seen, that looks like a good idea (very thorough, greater depth of knowledge required, several deep exams rather than one broad one).

 

 

[shags_j]

I'll be doing my ppl's in a Ga register LSA (ie. Tecnam eaglet or something). Can still manage to get RA cost for ppl license, why not.

 

 

[Bidgee]

I'll be doing my ppl's in a Ga register LSA (ie. Tecnam eaglet or something). Can still manage to get RA cost for ppl license, why not.

Because you dont get the experience in the heavier AC. And as Tomo says its the experience that will save you. The Pipers and Cessnas are also more complex than the typical LSA and the systems are different so there's plenty to get your head around; unless you're only planning to fly GA LSAs.

 

Learning to fly in a low wing nosewheel aircraft, that basically 'flew itself' was no real challenge

Tomo, can you point me in the direction of one of these please? I found it plenty challenging dealing with the 12-15kt crosswind in a highwing version on the weekend. It certainly wasnt flying itself.

 

Scott

 

 

[shags_j]

I have 25 hours in a cessna 172 and/or cherokee but plan on buying an lsa anyways.

 

 

[Tomo]

Tomo, can you point me in the direction of one of these please? I found it plenty challenging dealing with the 12-15kt crosswind in a highwing version on the weekend. It certainly wasnt flying itself.

G'day Scott, The aircraft I was talking about was a Piper Tomahawk, it was an exaggerated point as such, but compared to the likes of a Drifter, (or jab, but mostly the drifter), it is hugely different. And I find flying them is pretty much point and go.

 

If you have ever had the chance to fly a Dragonfly, the ones they use to tow hang gliders, they are so touchy! But a heap of fun! :big_grin:

 

 

[Guest rocketdriver]

[quote=Bidgee;170701 I found it plenty challenging dealing with the 12-15kt crosswind in a highwing version on the weekend. It certainly wasnt flying itself.

 

Scott

 

Scott, 12 to 15 kts is a BIG cross wind for anyone. and in my experience, a/c NEVER fly themselves ... its just that some are easier to command than others ..... In a cross wind, it is often the case that high wing aeroplanes demand more attention than low wings ... just because that wing is up there in the wind rather than scooting along in ground effect (for want of a simpler explanation..) A bit of practice is all it takes ..... providing you are within your a'c's cross wind capacity ...., and your instructor won't let you fly if its not!