Do we really need this?

[Guest Andys@coffs]

Wow...much ado about not much Im thinking....Last year we had a rego card and we had to have it stuck on the aircraft...this year we have a rego card and we have to stick it in a specific place on the aircraft.....Ok.....lets talk about the weather or flying...both more interesting than this beat up over nothing of great consequence (the change in the rules, not the underlying issue).

 

My take on it, Im reminded that an event that occurs to an unregistered aircraft and or pilot will, wrongly, in simplistic media terms, be applied to all of us who fly rec aviation aircraft and do the right thing. When that occurs my rights and freedoms are at risk from the "wrap everyone in cottonwool and red tape" brigade. As such I might from time to time have a look at the displayed rego card in others aircraft if im in a position to do so and not be seen as the local gestapo. If I can fix a problem before it becomes a bigger one, that impacts on me personally, so much the better.

 

Obviously I do not see the RAA instruction as a fundamental attack on my rights as an Australian citizen...

 

Andy

 

 

[Guest Maj Millard]

The general opinion here appears to be the same as mine, in that it is a crock of xxxx and a waste of our membership money (without any membership consultation again by the way !) I for one do not want RAAus office holders spending our hard earned money, or paid time, on something as useless as this !.

 

Tomo, Good question my friend. please let me try and explain. After some twenty years of being hit with really stupid ideas like this one, on regular occasions, please excuse me and others for wanting to bite back, for the following reasons :-

 

1. An idea as silly as this usually doesn't last long because it is barking up the wrong tree in the first place, and either dissappears or is replaced by something that will actually make a difference eventually. we know that from past experience.

 

2. We are already required to (a) fit a throttle lock which must be visable from outside, and (b) are also required to have our membership card displayed, and also visable from outside. Having a further requirement to put it into a plastic sleeve so it is visable from the wing tip, is a stupid approach in the extreme, and I for one really thought our head office staff were just a little smarter than that.

 

3. This is obviosly an over reaction to the fact that the number of unregistered aircraft increased last year. Like Hullo !...there has been a severe world financal downturn, and many aircraft have been simply parked for the duration, and left unregistered. Can they not see this at head office ?.

 

4. It will have absolutly no impact on the problem !.

 

5. We have to dig in and rebuke silly ineffective ideas like this, otherwise where does it stop ?.

 

6. To actually make it a Mandatory Airworthiness requirement is an abuse of our RAAus charter and stated goals, and makes me smell a rat. The rats name is not Basil, but CASA. It has nothing whatever to do with 'airworthiness' and is an abuse of that system.

 

My registration card is either in the aircraft displayed as required, or in my wallet if I'm at a strange airfield for the night, and I feel there may be a risk of theft. (It does, and has happened ) If you are asked to produce your drivers' license to a traffic officer on the road, and you don't have it on you, you generally have either 24 or 48 hours to produce it. That's common law in this country. It should also apply to producing our aircraft rego to the same police officer, or other offical person.

 

 

[airangel]

Get over it, its not a big deal, we are already obliged to display rego stickers, just like our vehicles. RAA aus are simply asking us to placeit so it can be readily seen!

 

 

[HEON]

Major, as a retired one myself, well put!

 

Surely we must have a "Midnight Foil" solution soon!

 

 

[Riley]

I'm with you Maj. There's a big difference between just scratching an itchy backside and/or clawing it all apart. Methinks RAA have many other areas in far greater need of scratching with our resources than this one. Given their questionable history in recording the details of my machines, I'd reckon they should first clean up their existing kitchen before launching into yet another aspect of record-keeping.

 

 

[Guest Andys@coffs]

You know if RAA had simply said, put the rego card in a specific place and nothing further on the underlying issues I doubt that this would have even raised an eyebrow. Its all about the underlying issue.

 

While Ive heard many of you say this is a crock and wont help the underlying issue Ive yet to see a single post where someone has put forward a realistic, affordable and more workable alternative. Sometimes the political reality is that you must be seen to do something...anything in fact.... (ASIC and throttle locks come to mind, alyhough both of those a a real and continuing embuggerance while this is virtually a zero impact change) and while that seems stupid our representatives have to play the game in which they find themselves, unless you think you can somehow change the other players such as casa and such so that the rules of the game get changed!

 

So for those that decry this as a fundamental attack on their freedoms then I suggest you put forward a real and workable alternative. If you can then we can be seen to do something, and it might actually benefit us all.

 

Andy

 

 

[markendee]

Are you telling me I have to take my rego card, put it in a clear plastic envelope and stick it onto the left hand side of my windscreen?

 

I'll have to have a lie down after all that.

 

Mark D

 

 

[Guest ozzie]

interesting thread.

 

i have never had my old rego card attached to the dash of the lazair. no dash. so it lives in my wallet. if some mug ever approaches me looking for it then he can ask and i'l just have to rely on their common sense that it is impratical to mount it. same goes for the new one no window no mountie. it can live under the seat cushion. same with throttle locks don't have them if the lazair is left unattended overnight i remove the engines. not so much that some terrorist knock off my beast rather more like some RC modeller taking the engines for their large scale model. besides i don't fly off an airport. and if someone from CASA rolls up looking for me it won't be for checking if i had the rego sticker in the right place. probably be for shutting engines off in fight to thermal or flying close to a ridge to soar. Then he'll have to get past 'Rufus'. (a real meanie of a dog that has 1 part ridgeback and 3 parts lion in his boodline.) This as i see it is a problem for those who fly out of and park on airports. visible from the wing tip, that is so the groundsman can check without getting out of his car. airport management and their staff will probably do the checking as it will be their responsibility to ensure that those who use the airport are legal. If people are flying around unregisted and talking about real RAAus aircraft here not the original grass roots types, they will be operating from their own properties.

 

Ozzie

 

Australia,

 

land of the free,

 

girt by sea,

 

and there is no escape.

 

 

[Jabiru Phil]

My immediate thought on reading was "Where do I stick it when my cover is on"!

 

Reading further it seems that I can "stick it" on the fuselage somewhere out of the main slip stream. Where would that be so it could be read from the wing tip?

 

This also brings up Maj's concern re security.

 

To check my throttle lock they can always unbuckle a part of the cover and view.

 

Any thoughts here Ian and others.

 

Phil.

 

 

[David F]

Rego Sticker

 

I dont really care but are they going to send me the certificate holder or do I have to send off for it? Are we going to get bounced if we dont have one for not complying with an an ?

 

Dave

 

 

[Guest jeepman]

Well the new rego card arrived today with the big expiry dates for our (shared) plane and guess what ?

 

No plastic wallet or sticker tape ?

 

What the ?

 

 

[Guest ozzie]

[HEON]

Quote: "(a) realistic, affordable and more workable alternative (to the new policy)"

 

How about enforcing the OLD policy!

 

When the word gets out that is being enforced, the unregistered will retreat to private property where the new policy ALSO will not work.

 

In other words, KILL THE GUILTY BASTARDS!!!! ONLY!!!!

 

 

[HEON]

No plastic holder? Is this the start of the new policy not working?

 

Question: if what an AN says is not included, can we forget about the AN?

 

 

[dazza 38]

Quote: "(a) realistic, affordable and more workable alternative (to the new policy)"How about enforcing the OLD policy!

 

When the word gets out that is being enforced, the unregistered will retreat to private property where the new policy ALSO will not work.

 

In other words, KILL THE GUILTY BASTARDS!!!! ONLY!!!!

Well said Heron

 

 

[Guest Andys@coffs]

Quote: "(a) realistic, affordable and more workable alternative (to the new policy)"How about enforcing the OLD policy!

 

When the word gets out that is being enforced, the unregistered will retreat to private property where the new policy ALSO will not work.

 

In other words, KILL THE GUILTY BASTARDS!!!! ONLY!!!!

Ok...so lets flesh this out. As is always the case the devils in the detail

 

in reverse order

 

workable alternative:-

 

Answer the usual questions:-

 

a) Who enforces the old policy

 

b) When is the old policy to be enforced

 

c) Where is it to be enforced

 

Answering all of those questions allows us to address the 2nd Question of affordability

 

On the new policy side of the ledger we have a new registration card and a plastic holder. I'll be generous and contend that it has a $20k implementation cost. personally I doubt that it will be close to that but for argument sake let it stand.

 

What does the policing the old policy cost to implement. Be real here dont say it will cost nothing, for the cost of nothing we have what we have now. Me, I'll contend that there will be at least 1FTE headcount cost. For 1 FTE to have any real effect they must travel widely and work weekends. What will that costs? Of course there will be those that say we dont need to employ anyone, just get the CFI's or instructors to police there own areas....They can do that now, but apparently it isnt being done, or isnt effective. Perhaps when RAA visits each school for the reviews that they do they could also tack on rego checks, but realistically that would require weekend work cause most of us only fly then and it adds to an existing workload.

 

And then lastly address the question of realism. Is what you are proposing realistic. Will it have any chance of a better outcome than the new policy will. Will it satisfy those in the game that demand an RAA reaction to the problem?

 

A one liner "police the existing policy" sounds simple, easy and eminently workable until you have to address each of the W Questions. At that time, in my opinion, it become an empty vessel no better or worse at addressing the issue than the alternate, but probably at significantly more cost.

 

Andy

 

P.S in case I didnt make it clear before, I dont believe the changes will fix anything either. But its not immediately obvious to me what solution we could put in place that will have minimal to no impact on the legitimate user base of RAA that will return a workable solution. Its why I asked the question I did! So abscent a real solution that we can afford, a paper tiger that costs nothing is probably a better solution(hmm no not a solution, maybe an outcome) than a gold plated paper tiger...

 

All I hope is that those that dont do the right thing come to realise that its not just the lost revenue from their registration that is the issue but the increase in my registration costs as we try and track them down because public opinion and or CASA opinion is somehow that its our problem! The fact that it isnt is irrelevant. Unfair....but get over it casue theres nothing we can do to change that

 

Or is there?

 

Happy to hear a real alternate here>

 

 

[bilby54]

As such I might from time to time have a look at the displayed rego card in others aircraft if im in a position to do so and not be seen as the local gestapo. If I can fix a problem before it becomes a bigger one, that impacts on me personally, so much the better.

Andy

Hey Andy,

 

Just wondering if you wander around Woolies car park and check all the rego stickers?

 

If a sun cover is on an aircraft while it is parked and you lift it, unbutton it or whatever to look inside, then it is regarded as interference to an aircraft. That is why those signs are printed on the sun shields.

 

Putting rego stickers outside or wherever will not stop the problem and there really is no workable solution. If the aircraft is not registered then it does not fall under the duristiction of the RAA, only CASA and the police.

 

As for the open cockpit ultralights, they are bound by this same rule and it is going to be a real gem to watch where the rego stickers are put :big_grin:

 

 

[winsor68]

"If the aircraft is not registered then it does not fall under the duristiction of the RAA, only CASA and the police."

 

This is what I don't understand... if an aircraft is not registered why would Ra-Aus be worried about the legal consequences to the public or passengers? Doesn't it become the operators problem? Or are they worried about possible bad publicity?

 

 

[Guest Andys@coffs]

Hey Andy,Just wondering if you wander around Woolies car park and check all the rego stickers?

 

If a sun cover is on an aircraft while it is parked and you lift it, unbutton it or whatever to look inside, then it is regarded as interference to an aircraft. That is why those signs are printed on the sun shields.

 

Putting rego stickers outside or wherever will not stop the problem and there really is no workable solution. If the aircraft is not registered then it does not fall under the duristiction of the RAA, only CASA and the police.

 

As for the open cockpit ultralights, they are bound by this same rule and it is going to be a real gem to watch where the rego stickers are put :big_grin:

Yep, I accept its a sucky solution, Ive never said it will solve the problem and I agree it shouldnt be our problem, but that big set of rego stickers on the side of that unregistered aircraft that is all numbers makes it our problem whether we want it or not. I accept that in a court it wont be, however the "protect and enhance your turf game" which is why we have RAA isnt played in a court.

 

 

[winsor68]

I just can't think of a single instance of an unregistered motor vehicle bringing disrepute on Qld(or whatever state you are in) Transport.

 

 

[Guest Andys@coffs]

I just can't think of a single instance of an unregistered motor vehicle bringing disrepute on Qld(or whatever state you are in) Transport.

Yeah but at the same time I havent heard of any government body supposedly actively looking for any excuse to majorly change Qld Transport and bring back the horse and buggy. With CASA etc those equavalent style of rumours are regularly aired. Are they real, I dont know?

 

And while we talk of state transport departments why is it that my ultralight plane has to have a throttle lock on it but the Mobil gas tankers which is arguably orders of magnitude more dangerous in the hands of a fanatical idiot is basically unchanged from pre9/11 obviously the issue is one of emotions and "Being seen to act" rather than any application of a logical response to a problem where there isnt a cost effective and problem effective solution.

 

But, your point is valid and maybe the real question that has to be asked of RAA is, why is the issue of unlicensed ultralights RAA's responsibility. Perhaps Ian could chase that question down.

 

 

[bilby54]

I think that the big problem with issue is the word COMPULSORY.

 

Everytime that word is used then we usually have to fork out money to comply albeit that this won't cost us personally but will cost the organisation as a whole.

 

I appreciate that RAA is "embarrased" every time that an unregistered aircraft is detected but it is not their fault and what is CASA doing to assist with the problem?

 

CASA does not have a problem with unregistered aircraft as they do have annual rego fees and are financed by the Australian taxpayer. I do not know how organisations such as the Gliding Federation operate with VH registrations but maybe this is what is required - just a suggestion

 

Andy has put up some good points regarding alternatives so I would suggest that everyone writes to their board member about it before the next COMPUSORY item, designed to stop chickens roosting in the shed or whatever, is formulated;)

 

 

[Guest Crezzi]

A copy of the RAAus aircraft database is available on line - RA-Aus aircraft register in number sequence (xhtml w3c 12/09)

 

It already contains the date each plane was first registered - would it be too hard to add another field with the expiry date of the current (or last) rego ? Then its easy for anyone to check that the planes they see flying around are current and have a quiet word with the owner (or dob them in if you prefer).

 

It wouldn't infringe anyone's privacy since the owners details aren't displayed.

 

Cheers

 

John

 

 

[Admin]

Thanks Crezzi, I will also try and bring this up at the board meeting this weekend for you

 

 

[Guest ozzie]

A word of advice here.

 

a couple of years ago i did not recieve my renewal. i only picked it up when i recieved a nasty letter reminding me it is an offence to fly unregisted a month after it ran out.

 

It could have ended up a bad news story if i was picked up during those few weeks unregisted and when it comes down to it, it is probably my repsonsibility to make sure the renewal is paid and not the RAus.

 

don't rely on the system