Why electric flaps??

[Sloper]

Goodaye all

 

Flew a Jabiroo 1600 with electric flaps yesterday.

 

Can l ask why you would put electric flaps in such a small aircraft?

 

l work on the KISS principle and to my mind using electrics instead of mechinal linkages is not keeping it simple.

 

Would'nt electric be heavier??

 

Also didnt enjoy flying the Jab after flying the Warrior.

 

regards Bruce

 

 

[Tomo]

Howdy Bruce

 

Why? I couldn't answer that, factory/personal preference I guess.

 

But I can sympathize with you, when I went to a Jabiru with electric flaps, I hatted it, so slow at deploying/retracting etc etc... I learnt in the 120 with manual flaps.

 

But after a few landings, I got it sorted, you just had to accommodate it a bit and change your ways a tad to make up for it. I get along with them now, and you can vary the amount of flap out, you can do all sorts of cool stuff with the electric ones you can't do if manual, and or if they were staggered electric.

 

The way I look at it, each aircraft has a personality, each has a different way, and each one needs to be understood. Different Characteristics is probably a reasonably good word for it. Having flown in aircraft ranging from 20 seater turboprops to rag & tube contraptions, I find that the fun part, trying to find out each personality!!

 

If you're coming from a Warrior background, you would probably find the Jabiru pretty demanding to fly, a lot do.

 

 

[Sloper]

Yes, it comes down to personel preference and l do want exposure to other types, doesnt mean l will like all of them.

 

l drive Chevs and Holdens, but there a couple of Fords that are ok. ;)

 

regards Bruce

 

 

[shags_j]

This is probably the only thing I do'nt like about the tecnam (and one of many things I don't like abotu the Jab).

 

Give me the handbrake stlye of the Cherokee any day. I don't even mind the click a button and it will go to lvl 1, click again for lvl2 etc of the C172 i used to fly.

 

Problem with the electric flaps is it diverts your attention into something else that could be avoided.

 

 

[flying dog]

David:

 

Electric flaps definitely diverge from the KISS principle, they have the added complication of needing a stepping control mechanism that controls / indicates at 10, 20, 30 degrees etc stages

 

Errr STEPPER MOTOR???!!!

 

Nah. They are standard 12v electirc motors. There is a toggle switch with three positions.

 

Middle - off

 

Up and down.

 

You push the switch the way you want to flaps to go and the motor moves the flaps up/down.

 

There is a little slide which shows the flap position.

 

 

[shags_j]

Stepper motor like I was talking about. You hit the switch and it will just go to that position. you don't need to watch the needle.

 

 

[winsor68]

Got the latest Ra-Aus Magazine... this has probably been noted already but the add for the J120 now shows electric flaps and J170 style undercarriage... Thumbs up for the legs... BIG thumbs down for the electric flaps from me.

 

 

[Jabiru Phil]

I would have been one of the first owners of the "new wing" on the 230 B (nearly 6 years ago) Talking to Rod Stiff at the time, deciding whether to go the new wing or not. He at the time advised electric flaps with the larger wing (optional) after asking my age as there would be considerable force required to lower flaps opposed to electic with the larger wing. That was the main reason I chose that way and no regrets. Has anybody got manual flaps on a 230 (obviously kit built) for comments?

 

I did my training in the UL manual.

 

Phil.

 

 

[flying dog]

Ok sorry.

 

Appologies.

 

 

[jetjr]

Ive got the manual type in a J200 - apart from being akward when your taller, handle is above your left ear. When carrying passenger you both have to lean to left to allow your arm room.

 

The only other issue I have is it relies on a detent pin fitting into hole to anchor its position

 

It can and does slip out with a large bang. This induces a serious seat cover gripping moment as flaps are released from st2 to Nil in half a second. Remember this happens on short finals requiring dramatic action to avoid crash

 

Its also easy to let flap off too fast, air pressure is pulling it out of your hand. Elect slows it down with gentler action. I agree for missed approach or T&G its an issue however, most landings are on Stg 1 flap anyway which is OK for T&G anyway

 

Im going to fit electric ....................... have had the kit for 2 years now but never seem to get around to it. So long as I conciously push and lock lever in place on St 2 its OK. Doesnt seem to slip from St1.

 

Regarding flap unit failure, its not hard to land without them.

 

 

[flying dog]

The Jabs I've flow have two stages - well three if you count NO FLAP as a stage.

 

1 for takeoffs - if needed

 

2 for landings but I usually use 1 or none.

 

 

[jetjr]

What Flying dog said

 

I only use st 2 when I stuffed the approach and need to fall fast, other wise its 1 max for TO and landing

 

Both flaps are locked on same rod so cant really loose 1 side unles outside lever breaks off. Although Ive seen cracked ones from use doing too fast airspeed, but that would go to off rather than stuck on.

 

Jab can fly quite normally with stge 1 flap stuck on just slower. So seems to me just dont use st2 unless you have to - what if it jams or wont come off in a hurry. Other than this electric seems OK to me. With any failure its level of risk your talking about.

 

Your right re the bad shoulder, mine was sore for a while and it was hard to pull down flap lever. Particularly St 2 which needs lever pulled nearly vertical

 

Basic problem is flaps take a fair bit of leverage to pull on so without long lever movement its going to involve some muscle, control has to be in roof, so manual flap setup is pretty difficult to get right.

 

 

[GraemeK]

My only complaint with the electric Jab flaps is sometimes the switch sticks - so on base you lower to stage 1 and let go the switch but the flaps keep on coming down. Bit of a gotcha!

 

 

[dazza 38]

Hi David, as per your post 16. I did my pilot cert in a LSA 55, jabiru. Yes i remember the flap lever popping out of detent. Every now and again.Not good on late final.It was one of the very first LSA 55's. The pin, used to wear out over time and not stay in the locating hole, even when firmly placed in position. The pin was replaced regularly.THis was back in 1997 though, i see the j120, 'looks' like the same set up.

 

 

[Jabiru Phil]

Thanks for the above information. Sounds as though I made the right decision. I just remembered my crook left shoulder of the last few months. I would have blamed the flap lever if I had one.

 

Twisting and useing the right hand would be a Houdini trick I reckon.

 

Phil.

 

 

[Tomo]

It isn't just Jabiru with electric flaps...

 

Lightning and Pioneer have them just to name a couple of other 'ultralight' types...

 

As for electric failing, you're usually only using flaps for landing or taking off, so if they don't work, just circuit to land and check it out, or if you're already landing, no big drama. Also a good thump on the elec motor some times helps. (I know J160's with the cover left off for that reason!)

 

I don't really have a problem with either system.

 

 

[Guest Maj Millard]

In respect to the manual Jab flaps taking excessive force to manually operate. I would suggest that the jab system just needs more design work, to get it right. It has nothing to do with the size of the wing, as suggested in previous posts.

 

The Lightwing and Slepcev Storch both have huge wings compared to the Jab, and both have manual flaps, lever-operated over the left shoulder. The Storch has probabily the biggest flaps in the business, and it's only two position, OFF and 40 Deg !. Both are well designed and easy to operate without requiring excessive force, and both have comparable flap deployment speeds to the Jab.

 

I would suggest the Jab designers go back to the drawing board to have another shot at getting thier manual flap system right. A well designed manual flap system will always be inherently more reliable to the electric equivilent.....................................Maj..

 

 

[jetjr]

The kind of electric flap you describe is a pretty cheap attempt by Jab, they could have done better than that.

 

David

 

These flap servos arent cheap, They are also heavy and have the issues outlined above.

 

Id suggest they couldn't come up with a better solution or it isnt worth redesigning the aircraft to do it

 

 

[Jabiru Phil]

The bi-ennial flight revue test that I have done incorperates flapless landings.

 

I just come in a little hotter, no problems.

 

One of our jabs had a couple of inches of water in the fuselage after rain a year or so ago. The flap motor did not work until it dried out. Has not given any problems since.

 

Maj, What I meant by the larger jab wing was the flaps are larger.

 

Yair, got a Burser in shoulder. Specialist next month.

 

Phil

 

Phil

 

 

[Guest Maj Millard]

[QUOTE=jetjr;183090]The kind of electric flap you describe is a pretty cheap attempt by Jab, they could have done better than that.

 

All points posted above have some merit.

 

Jabphil, hope everything works out with the shoulder.

 

I hate to keep flogging a dead horse here, however my complaints all along with Jabs is as quoted above "they could have done better than that". It seems unfortunatly to be a common complaint with many other areas on the Jab also.

 

It's not like they're going broke with the current record sales, but they do need to put more into the R&D side of things, and get some of their ongoing problems sorted, then blokes like me wouldn't have anything to whinge about !.

 

And please don't come back with it's the old Holden vs Ford thing again. Jabs have been coming out the door now for 20 years or so, it's still more BMW Vs Commordore.

 

I would love to see the Jab be as good as it could be, and I believe Australians have the skills to design and fix things better than is currently being done.

 

End of rant............the squeaky wheel.

 

 

[The Wolf]

I don't understand the prevalence to go to electric driven flap mechanisms.....is it because we (consumers) have become inherently lazy and want everything electric? How much does some cable, some pulleys a lever with a quality detent mechanism with some good physics in the design to minimize application forces really cost? Surely Jab with the high volume of sales and popularity would see the value in good manual mechanisms .... or is it the consumer thing again?

I dont think it has anything to do with being lazy. They are trying to sell a "modern" plane. and modern things are electric. Everyone looks for their own interests in flying. I personally dont want to feel like i am flying a 13th century box kite so i want a plane with electric flaps and "modern" trinkets

 

 

[Guest Pioneer200]

I have no problem with the electric flaps in the J160.

 

If it fails we just have to do a flapless landing or a landing with which ever position the flaps are in.

 

The fact the switch doesn't automatically give one notch of flap with one flick is not a concern at all, once you have flown it a few times you get to know how long to hold the switch down for approx 1st stage, then hold switch down till it stops on full flap(if you care to use full flap)

 

To me I see the Jabiru as a plane that is reliable and safe,tough and aimed to sell in the middle price bracket of microlights.

 

If lots of minor improvements mean another 5 or 10 grand on the cost it could put people off buying them. Jabiru still seem to sell lots of planes with the design set up they have.

 

 

[jetjr]

"Clever Japs" didnt have to have their product recertified at huge cost everytime they made a change

 

They are also masters at implementing electric gadget upgrades to cars we buy everyday, electric windows, seats, mirrors, gearboxes, throttle control, cruise, injection etc etc. All of which we dont need but still flock to buy. Over time they become highly reliable, cheap and standard equipment.

 

I doubt theres anything Jab could do to please Maj :), so thats one customer they dont have. Cant please everyone and thier AC arent suitable for everyone. Thats why theres other types. Pick one with the compromises you can live with.

 

As you rightly said they are selling plenty

 

 

[Guest Maj Millard]

Ross is not that hard to please, but I have been around, and I know that a reliable engine, and a bit of good design goes a long way in aviation, and both are easily achievable if you really try. I'd be more than happy to go out and promote Jabs, what Australian wouldn't want to ?. But I wish they would get off their axxx and fix a few obvious things. I don't have too many problems with the fuselage, except for the leaky doors and no drain holes, and nose gear legs that won't stay where they are put, especially when you really need them in an off-field landing, or runway excursion. Maybe Jab doesn't mind constantly fixing damaged fuselages, and selling more nose-wheel assemblies and props. One way to stay in business I suppose.

 

As JETJR suggested "Find the aircraft that has the compromises you like,and go with that ".

 

My lightwing has way more room in the cabin, and a real reliable engine up front, so I'm happy with my compromises.

 

I am very supportive of the other Aussie designs such as the Cheetah, Hornet and Brumby. They all go out of their way to please the customer, and make the best plane they are capable of making. They've all come a long way in a short time, not stagnant after a long time. They also offer the customer the choice of engines, which is a biggie in my book. If Jab insists in sticking with their 'successfull formula' they may soon have some company on the perch at the top, with some of the newer local products now coming on the market.

 

If people like me don't highlight some weakpoints, then they may still have them in 20 years. In a way we are doing them a favor really. ....................................................Maj..

 

 

[jetjr]

I was just having a stir regarding Maj being hard to please, and agree we do need to keep pressure on makers to do better. Trouble is development costs money and adds risk. Jab has spend up big designing new wing and new engines and the whole LSA route and probably needs to consolidate as it hasnt been a wholly smooth road.

 

Key people there are also reknown for not changing thier ideas easily. Its worked for them so far.

 

There are others moving up however I reckon they are still very small volume producers so are facing different problems. Jab still provides good value aircraft with a few problems but have many hours on airframes too.

 

How does LSA certification work? ie if they change say a nose wheel assembly setup, or flap operation method, does it have to be recertified or can the maker just approve it and keep going?