RAAus non renewals.

[Guest ozzie]

I have just been reading the blurb by the new CEO in the RAAus magazine i recieved today.

 

He makes comment on the 'significant' numbers of members who are not renewing their membership when it falls due. He writes that one can only guess at any number of reasons for this: like pressures of cash flow due to drought or reduced opertunities of employment due to the global economic crisis, or health issues. Robbie continues on to say that "we" are interested in why members do not renew and have added some check boxes on the renewal forms to find out.

 

Well if i was not going to renew my membership i don't think that i would bother spending money on a stamp if i had cash flow problems, was on the dole or had to spend what little cash the doctors have not taken to bother to reply. I also belive that if Robbie is going to limit his check boxes to the above reasons it wil not really be a fair poll. Whilst some may be bailing due to lack of cash to afford 150 bucks for each lesson or an hours hire i don't think it would come to a large percentage of why people are dropping out.

 

Now it would not have anything to do with having your hand continuously in your pocket for ever increasing costs for ASIC cards, paying for mandatory courses and exams like human factors, mandatory equipment purchases like radio and epirbs. How about fear of being thrown in the slammer or threats of huge fines if you inadvertantly screw up because you could not correctly decipher the rediculus wording of CASA's and the RAAus gobbly goop regs or being contiuously reminded that we are a bunch of out of control kiddies who need to be reminded of the fact every time we recieve our magazines or get a newsletter from the CASA CEO. Have i missed anything?

 

ozzie

 

 

[shags_j]

In all fairness, the membership fees for RA Aus are quite well priced. The local RC air club has memberships higher (they claim for insurance...)

 

I think RA Aus is doing a good job reducing the requirements compared to CASA. I don't need an asic, I don't need medicals, human factors was quite well priced and a good course. The requirements for epirbs and radios, really aren't that expensive compared to the price of an aircraft.

 

I understand what you are saying but it would appear the gripes you have are more related to CASA issues than RA

 

 

[Guest Escadrille]

Ozzie, I believe you are pretty much on the "money" here. Just check the content of the latest RAAUs magazine.. the content is focused on the high end of Rec aviation. The ads and content featured aircraft that are expensive (50-180K). I sent an email to the big three with my observations and have received no reply. I believe RAAus is slowly morphing by stealth into a quasi GA organisation with CASA having a surreptitious hand up its back by virtue of the gradual change in the backgrounds of the personnel involved in the running of RA AUs, i.e most of these people have a GA and /or military background whereas the earlier people had an ultralight/sport aircraft back ground.People from the GA and Military tend to believe in efficacy of bureaucracy to address inconvenient issues and therefore a reason for existence.....

 

IMHO ,

 

Andy

 

 

[Vorticity]

I am surprised how expensive flying RAAus is becoming. I have tried to collect some info to compare between the 80s, 90s and now. My thought was to use the data for average wage to compare the price of aircraft and hourly rates. If anyone can recall this info please let me know and I will do a comparison.

 

In the 90s two basic trainers where the thruster (around $20,000 new?) and the skyfox ($45,000 new?). Compare that with the new bread coming in around the $150,000.. You cannot expect that this increased cost will not be passed along to the student/hire.

 

Dual hours where around $75-$90/hr in the skyfox,compare that to $256/hr currently charged for dual instruction in a tecnam eaglett at Redcliffe.

 

Will all the advances and expensive aircraft price RAAus out of contention as an affordable option? Is there still a market for training in lower end aircraft (drifters, bantams etc) so that people can buy an affordable 50kt beast to enjoy flying?

 

In my short 15 year being interested in ultralights I have noticed the almost extinction of the wheeler scouts etc that where once common place. In 15 years will it be a novalty to see a drifter or bantam at natfly?

 

 

[shags_j]

Don't get sidetracked. We aren't talking cost of aircraft. That is an external factor.

 

The OP was talking about RAAus Costs (membership, asic etc)

 

 

[Vorticity]

Oh, please accept my deepest apologies.

 

 

[shags_j]

All good.

 

And you are 100% right in what you said.

 

 

[FlyingVizsla]

I too have heard rumblings from members about how RAA is now all about the plastic fantastics and GA. This is mostly from people who came up from the rag and string single seat era. I know some people who are not renewing, or reluctantly renewing, or wishing they could be their own small group again.

 

This is what I am hearing:

 

• Too much info required at renewal (hours flown etc) usually from people who are not into form filling or resent having to report anything to anyone, or are suspicious as to what CASA/RAA are going to do with the info (is someone going to compare your log book with annual statement).
   
   
  
• The need for the Human Factors exam by September - can't see why they need this rubbish, been flying safely for years, long way from any flying instructor (inconvenience & cost), text book is too hard to understand, no idea what HF is - only heard it is a load of hogwash - don't know where to start and have no motivation to do so.
   
   
  
• They resent what they see as restrictions on their freedom and fear further over regulation. They perceive a shift in AUF/RAA as moving more towards CASA and away from their grassroots/members.
   
   
  
• Feeling disengaged from the organisation (I certainly was until I found this forum), no longer knowing or meeting our reps. I remember meeting Middo & Myles at least once a year at the aero club, now I don't see anyone because we don't have a school at our strip.
   
   
  
• Ancillary to these issues - their aircraft is not flyable or for sale, they have not flown for a while and the above is the catalyst for a non renewal.
   
   
  
• Frustrated and angry about non RAA issues - ASIC, alcohol testing (not the test itself but the rules - worried or annoyed that you can't take your hangover to the strip and polish the plane and other scenarios)
   
   
  

 

 

 

Surprisingly no one has said "I can't afford it" as the cost has not risen that much compared with other fees & charges (car rego etc). I have seen Aero club fees rise due to Councils/strip owners wanting higher public liability. Ours rose from $60 to $500 last year with more to come when the lease is renewed this year. There was some complaining but the members renewed - the club was small enough to be transparent, responsive to members, executive enthusiastic and good communicators.

 

While I do not condone rude or aggressive behaviour towards RAA staff, I think this is showing people frustrated with the organisation and not having an outlet for it. Perhaps an analysis of their complaints might give more insight into the problems. I suspect a tick box will end up with people ticking the easy answer (Cost?) rather than have to explain the real reason and maybe deal with some uncomfortable emotions.

 

The usual disclaimer - hope things can improve.

 

Sue

 

 

[shags_j]

Shoudl we seperate the non-lsa pilots from the the lsa pilots and have a seperate organisation. Would this then mean that each parties fixed costs increase therefore having an affect on the membership fees annually.

 

If the current members are mostly lsa type pilots then does this mean that the organisation is more in favour of these types now (ie. majority rules) so the rest just have to take a teaspoon of cement.

 

Just some thoughts. Not going to debate the merits of HF and stuff like that here. That's for another time.

 

Have any of the complainers spoken to their local rep or is it just the incessant complaining evident in any hobby?

 

Again just thoughts, don't shoot me.

 

 

[motzartmerv]

Do we all realise that there are now more RAA acft on register then private GA aircraft?

 

Steve Bell quoted the figures in a recent visit, i can't recall them at the moment.

 

Old school ultralights are still around, granted, they are becoming rare.

 

The consumer (us) will always dictate demand in any market, ie, the numbers show what people want. Old school gear is still around if thats what your after, but don't look down on progress.

 

Appolagies for the topic drift.

 

 

[Guest Escadrille]

Actually young shags, unbeknown to you, you may be on to something there. The powered hang glider and powered parachute crew seem to be having the early ultralight thing happening all over again. Maybe we will end up with something like the USA with their FAR Part 103 very light aircraft category again (Like 95-10 aircraft)

 

From my own point of view I believe AUF now RAAUS was set up to cater for all. But, in the opinion of some, this is failing to happen for some of the reasons Flying Vizla has put so well. I for one am disappointed that the outside pressures being put on RAAUs is distorting their ability to effectively cater for the vast majority - which you mention.

 

Frankly I don't think it should be necessary for anyone to have to take a "spoonful of cement " as you so eloquently put it. Does your own aviation aspirations influence your position at all? If you check the RAAUS mission it is about aviation for all, not the few who can keep up with the constant burgeoning financial impositions.There are still many out there who cannot and will not concede that Ultralights and Light sport Aircraft have actually saved aviation in Australia,in fact have grown it, (so you can fly a Tecnam.. ) and not wrecked it.

 

As the acknowledged leading sport aircraft body we the membership and the executive need to refocus and it is still a country where the citizens can have their say. Come on Ozzie you started the thread..Over to you!

 

 

[sain]

WARNING: GRUMPY MOOD RANT below

 

For me I've been annoyed about a lot of stupid/wasteful decision making thats been going on (what on earth is the aircraft rego sticker thing going to help??). Human factors is a prime example to me - wern't we being taught and tested on this anyway?

 

A lot of my dissatisfaction with the organisation has come from the drivel that has become our magazine.

 

Most of it is either

 

1. Ads
    
    
   
2. self important banging on from the executive (who really cares that we have around 20 new aircraft registered every year? Especially if you don't give the other figure of how many are not-renewed)
    
    
   
3. More Ads
    
    
   
4. Reminders from the executive to fly safe
    
    
   
5. Ads
    
    
   
6. More Ads.
    
    
   
7. Ads
    
    
   
8. Ads
    
    
   
9. Some other Ads.
    
    
   

 

 

Total content that I was vaguely interested in came to 9 pages in the last issue - 7 of aircraft ads in the members section and 2 pages on the wallaby kit built @ natfly. And I was dissappointed in the 2 pages. And half of one of those 2 pages was an Ad.

 

While I understand the ads contribute to the lower costs for the organisation, perhaps some more content would make the magazine a worthwhile read.

 

Way off topic - how about a slightly cheaper option for electronic only delivery of the mag (pdf?). And how about we print it on softer, not so shiny paper - so that it can at least be used for toilet paper?

 

All that said I'm still going to be renewing when it comes due in a couple of months

 

Anyway, enough of my :csm:

 

 

[Guest Escadrille]

The magazine and its contents are certainly an issue for many but I really think that is the subject of a whole new thread.The editor might know if there are many articles sent in for submission but we don't know that ...i_dunno

 

 

[shags_j]

Sorry Escadrille, I have a tendancy to say it how I feel (rather than how it should be). Gets me into trouble all the time.

 

Regardless of the intent of RAAus I do think that it will become more and more difficult for them to cater to all of the recreational hobbies. Perhaps a split is absolutely required.

 

Really the commetn about hardening up relates to the constant whining about HF and EPIRBS etc. I don't think the extra cost etc. is all that much to ask when a changing environment is evident. Yes you may have been flying for 20 years and been safe but does that mean we make an exception just for you? Does it mean that the other guy who has been flying for 20 years is just as safe as you and just lucky?

 

I understand my aspirations may influence my opinion but I did start in GA and moved to RA when I saw that it fit my requirements, and still does.

 

But as you say this is all good discussion and if you are not happy about something you have to speak up otherwise noone will ever know.

 

 

[winsor68]

I think not so much a split... perhaps a removal of virtually all regulatory requirements for US Part103 legal machines in a similar vein? Member ship would still continue to climb... many people would welcome being able to operate US style Ultralights with the only proviso being the pilot must hold a certificate. Some may get the pilot certificate and leave... There is nothing but a growing potential membership out there so that in itself would be no big deal...

 

 

[Guest Escadrille]

As the original post of Ozzies was about the new CEOs comment wrt RAAUs renewals and then Ozzie extended into the direction he sees RAAUS seems to heading,I would just like to remind us all and particularly our CEO, Executive and and Board of the RA Aus mission from the website.

 

Mission:

 

To foster, encourage and develop safe Recreational Aviation in Australia with minimum bureaucracy and minimum cost.”

 

We seem to be good at encouraging and developing the safe bit but the minimum bureaucracy and minimum cost is suffering!

 

 

[XP503]

So much negativity toward the RAAus, an organization that has allowed us the freedom to fly.

 

Those of you out there who are bagging YOUR organization/magazine should be ashamed of yourselves.

 

 

[Guest Escadrille]

David, No one cherishes the freedom to fly more than us/me. It is this very love of the freedom to fly that raises questions! If no one says anything then we cannot bleat about those very freedoms being eroded!

 

I have contacted RAAUS with my concerns re the magazine and as Ozzie pointed out to me that many people are too scared to say anything at all. I believe it was a member of the Flying Tigers at Boonah that last called into question the direction our organisation is heading in?

 

Yes it can be an emotive issue but bagging people who raise issues is not the solution either..David..

 

Healthy debate, however, is...

 

 

[XP503]

So long as it is healthy discussion not just a bunch of disgruntled members sitting around whinging and being negative, then that's great stuff.

 

Tally Ho!

 

 

[HEON]

Can I say "Me To", to quote someones name I will not repeat, as I tend to agree with all the posts.

 

As I like the so called high end (Speed), low end (Drifter), and a splash in the middle (Petrel) I feel as though I have a foot in many camps.

 

That is what RAA rearly is now...many camps; that if it has a single body to rule it, that body must cover all the requirements of all the camps as it is not practable to exclude any camp from the collective requirements. The only way to do that would be for each camp to pick up their bat and ball and play somewhere elce...and that would be very counterproductive in my opinion.

 

As for a Skyfox at 45000 (What years $'s)...give me a J-120 at 63000 todays $'s any day! You cannot rearly compare a Skyfox to the 120000plus as they are chalk and cheese! As for Tecnum lessons at $256...go somewhere elce...may I give a hint that if the another school can buy two other trainers for the price of one Tecnum their costs and prices will be much less. Simple busness requirement is to cover the cost of your equipment!

 

 

[winsor68]

This is just my personal thinkings on this....

 

I think the problem is not so much membership fees... they are hardly an imposition if you can afford to pay for a reasonable amount of flying it is hardly a blip on the financial radar to pay a few hundred a year for some bloke to keep a list of your details and administer the paperwork...

 

I have not been a member for long but I have watched Ra-Aus over the last 20 or so years and it is definitely a very different group of flyers than existed in the earlier years in my experience... the membership has changed. I mean how many of us have never flown an "Ultralight" ?

 

I hope that Part103/95.10 can be kept on board... I mean the only reason for the original changes to early ultralight regs were to make Dual Instruction available in order to help most people to fly with an acceptable level of safety... So this is a good thing for new Part 103 type ultralight enthusiasts. I think it does not take a lot of effort to lessen the regulation on the real ultralights without to much in the way of problems... just make sure the pilots get an Ra-Aus restricted certificate as a minimum... ?

 

 

[shags_j]

I learnt in a tecnam at about the $170 mark (Which includes instructor). Solor ates are about $130.

 

 

[Bidgee]

If we dont want more regs and expense why do we keep asking for more privileges? They go hand in hand. Want a weight increase then put up with the regs, want to fly above 5,000ft then dont complain when you need a radio.

 

Got to agree about the mag. Good for about 1 throne sitting.

 

I also learnt in a Tecnam - $160 dual, $115 solo.

 

Scott

 

 

[shags_j]

Bidgee,

 

5 bucks says the people complaining about added expense are not the people wanting extra privileges.

 

And that is so true about the mag. It is.

 

 

[Bidgee]

5 bucks says the people complaining about added expense are not the people wanting extra privileges.

Good point. I think those not wanting the expense would be better off mustering the troops within RAA and taking a unified voice to the exec. Splintering off would be a good first step to marginalisation.