Guest Ken deVos Posted January 10, 2007 Posted January 10, 2007 According to my trusted source, who obtained the news directly from the "horse's mouth", a reputable GA-only flying school in the Yarra Valley of Victoria (no, it's not at YCEM) allegedly has two Jabiru J160 aircraft with RAAus registration, on order for delivery in February. If this is indeed true, then it is wonderful news as there is a void of RAAus flight training and aircraft hire options in this area.
leestanley Posted January 11, 2007 Posted January 11, 2007 Yes, Ken... Lilydale and it is great news... should make it a breeze to move seamlessly from RAAus at Tooradin to GA at Lilydale. Cheers, Lee.
Rallye Posted January 12, 2007 Posted January 12, 2007 HI Ken de Vos, Yes, you are right. I went and asked at Lilydale yesterday (Friday) I had asked about keeping a RA Aus aircraft about a year ago and was left feeling a bit lower caste. I was told if I had seen an ultralight there it was one that had landed without permission. However, the rumour is correct - two Jab 160's arriving February as well as two experienced competent and friendly RA Aus instructors. Flyers in this area SE of Melbourne might even be able to guess their identities. The existing GA Instructors are being brought on line as well. It seems like the start of a VERY GOOD THING. Also, I would like to emphasise a VERY VERY FRIENDLY atmostphere, -- you know - when you get that feeling that you can stay taking up space and not that one where you think people would be happier if you buggered off and left them in peace. From my conversation there I believe they are welcoming recreational flyers. BUT I think the welcome mat is for the aircraft types that will not conflict with existing traffic and performances. I stress that this is my opinion, but it might be a reason for their measured and obviously careful consideration leading up to this decision. Any existing organisation, particularly a commercial one, has to remain viable as well as considering existing clientele. That is my two penny worth of thoughts, hope it does not trample on anyones toes. However, the new changes and feelings are an answer to my requirements at the least, as well filling a pretty big hole in the flying facilities for this part of the world. All the best Dave
Admin Posted January 12, 2007 Posted January 12, 2007 It will be interesting to see what prices they are going to charge - I think it will be great as long as they don't start charging rates like Sunbury or higher. I could be wrong now but when I started looking at training Shepparton was charging $119 Dual with Free Briefing time yet Sunbury was charging $160 Dual but for only 45mins flying time and 15mins briefing which made the Gazelle $213 an hour flying time. Point Cook was the cheapest in Melb at the time with their Gazelle at that time $139 an hour dual (I think they are about $160 now). I am a strong supporter of keeping Recreational Flying for recreational and not for business.
Guest brentc Posted January 15, 2007 Posted January 15, 2007 It is true that the former CFI of Tooradin will be setting up shop at Lilydale in the near future, possibly in a part time capacity. First aircraft due in Feb. There are other instructors that will be involved and may include existing GA instructors. Competition is always good in the industry however I think that Lilydale is far enough away in driving distance from Tooradin, Sunbury and Point Cook so as to not cause any poaching problems. Lilydale has been there with the existing owers for some 40? years, so I suspect that it will be a professionally run arrangement, however only time will tell.
Guest Ken deVos Posted January 16, 2007 Posted January 16, 2007 Good competition is healthy for all business. If past GA price comparisons between YLIL and YCEM are any guide, I'll bet that YLIL will compete well. As I mentioned in my first post, there is a void of RAAus flight training and aircraft hire options in the Yarra Valley and it will be very interesting to see what, if anything, Royal Vic Aero Club at YCEM may do. Joining Brett Michell at Lilidale Flying School is Bryn Deasy. My understanding is that Bryn will replace one of two GA instructors who have departed to further their careers at Tindal NT. Bryn hails from Bundaberg QLD and inter-alia, endorsed RAAus pilots on the J160 while at Tooradin. Oh what a tangled web we weave .....
Guest aaronb Posted January 16, 2007 Posted January 16, 2007 hey guys, just a little update, 1st jab arrives the 2nd week of feb :P
Rallye Posted January 16, 2007 Posted January 16, 2007 Hi all, All the facts in previous posts I believe are correct from conversations I have had at Lilydale. There is a meeting there for existing owners/flyers and others for explanations and I guess to allay fears. According to information given and notice displayed it's for February 14th at 7 for 7.30pm or 1930hrs if you prefer. All the best Dave
Admin Posted January 16, 2007 Posted January 16, 2007 February 14th at 7 for 7.30pm - Valentines Day - Dave, I wonder how many wife's and girlfriends are going to let their guys go to a Flying Meeting on that night
Rallye Posted January 16, 2007 Posted January 16, 2007 Hi Ian, No problems I am an old chauvinistic pig according to my wife of 30+ years and I suppose she would know! However they do have lady members at Lilydale who also fly and even have Ladies Fly Aways!!! All the best Dave
Guest aaronb Posted January 31, 2007 Posted January 31, 2007 Guys, Just got a bit of info , look like the J160's will be about the $100 per hour for solo :P
Guest Ken deVos Posted January 31, 2007 Posted January 31, 2007 Guys,Just got a bit of info , look like the J160's will be about the $100 per hour for solo :P Hi Shifty06 Sounds like a good price for solo in the J160. About halfway between Tooradin at $115/h and Horsham at $80/h.(http://home.vicnet.net.au/~wimmsoar/lsa_flight_training.htm)
Guest brentc Posted February 1, 2007 Posted February 1, 2007 I do wonder how they can run the aircraft (any aircraft for that matter) for only $80 an hour when the spreadsheet from Jabiru puts the running cost at close to, if not more than this. Either way I wouldn't complain! Any idea on the Dual rate as yet for Lilydale? I wonder what options it will have (the Lilydale one), eg Dynon cockpit, etc, etc. I guess you get more wizzadry when you pay more per hour.
Guest brentc Posted February 4, 2007 Posted February 4, 2007 For those that are interested, I found out a little more about the rates for the J160 at Lilydale. Rates are only $100 for solo during the week when they are discounted. It's $114 solo on Weekends for the J160. Dual during the week is $170. Dual on weekends is $187. The boys head to Bundaberg this Wednesday to pick it up and will be back a few days later. The second Jab will be a month or 2 later before it arrives.
Guest pelorus32 Posted February 4, 2007 Posted February 4, 2007 That's asking a lot. The only rate that's anywhere near competitive is the weekday solo rate. The weekend dual rate is $30/hr over the market...and you have to fly a Jab for that price!! Regards Mike
Admin Posted February 4, 2007 Posted February 4, 2007 As I thought, and I know Lilydale, that weekend price when recreational flyers only have a chance to fly is far too high. You would expect to pay that much for any aviation training when you are starting off for a career in aviation but not for recreation. Offcourse even if you are Jabiru certified, you will still have to be checked out by them which no doubt they will say will take a couple of hours dual before you could hire it solo.
Guest brentc Posted February 4, 2007 Posted February 4, 2007 A school that I know of half considered lowering prices for the weekdays, however when they put some thought into it there was little point as it's highly unlikely that a hirer / student would take half a day off to save $10 or whatever an hour to fly. By the time you lose your salary or half a leave day, it would hardly be worth it. Personally I would struggle to align my annual leave days with good weather in order to go to the airfield and save a few dollars an hour.
Guest Ken deVos Posted February 4, 2007 Posted February 4, 2007 ... you will still have to be checked out by them which no doubt they will say will take a couple of hours dual before you could hire it solo. Lilydale require GA hirers to have 3-monthly check flights. Also, cheaper weekly rates for GA training required a deposit of up to $1000 into an account from which they debit costs after each flight. Not sure if this will be the case for RAA.
Guest Ken deVos Posted February 4, 2007 Posted February 4, 2007 There is a meeting there for existing owners/flyers and others for explanations and I guess to allay fears. According to information given and notice displayed it's for February 14th at 7 for 7.30pm or 1930hrs if you prefer. According to the notice I read last Friday, this free seminar/meeting is for anyone interested and will be run by their CFI Peter Gregory and staff in the 'large hangar'. RSVP at the desk or phone 03 9739 1211 It will be interesting to see what aircraft types will be allowed to use the field. Currently, there is no problem obtaining permission for RAA 24 certified aircraft.
leestanley Posted February 5, 2007 Posted February 5, 2007 I wonder if Lilydale are planning to dispose of any of their GA training aircraft in lieu of the Jabs... Those dual rates advised by Brent would only be attractive to existing students looking for cheaper dual hours as they are still significantly cheaper than GA. Solo weekend pricing is on par with the competition (eg Tooradin) so, for someone like me who intends to convert to GA asap, Lilydale with Jabs is very attractive for the seamless instructor transition - after I obtain basic certificate and endorsements at Tooradin. Lee.
blueline Posted February 5, 2007 Posted February 5, 2007 On the issue of pricing On the pricing issue I think that while $187 dual is not cheap, it is not outrageous. There are clubs that do training much cheaper because they either don't pay instructors (as in the gliding community) or they make money from membership fees. I myself am trying to make a living in running a flying school, and believe me at $187 per hour the people at Lilydale will be doing OK, but will not be making a killing (and I can explain why if people really want to know) Pay peanuts, get monkeys!
leestanley Posted February 5, 2007 Posted February 5, 2007 hi blueline, i'm interested in the ecomonics of unning a flying school... eg, at tooradin, we pay 160 dual... 2 jab160s and 1 lsa55 usually on line. no membership fees and i'm unsure how many students are on the books. there is a popular restaurant at the aerodrome, so perhaps there is a cross subsidy there... your experience and insights would be very valuable! lee.
blueline Posted February 6, 2007 Posted February 6, 2007 In my case it is pretty simple. I pay $75 per hour (no gst) to the owners of the aircraft and charge $95 solo and $155 dual (incl gst). I make $11.36 when the student is flying solo and $65.91 when I am in the aircraft. I do about 10 hours dual a week and approx 5 hours solo, so I make about $715.80 a week (before office rent, power etc). To do this I am available 7 days a week and fly most days. I don't charge for briefing time (but do for theory courses, so I make more when I am running a theory class). If I had more students I would start to make a reasonable wage, but I am just starting (mind you I have been instructing for seven years & have over 2000hrs, so I am not new to flying!). The money is not why people start flying schools. I love flying, and I love helping people achieve their goals. It is necessary that I eat however and that is why I charge what I do!
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