Radio in potential emergency

[skeptic36]

Hi all,

 

I have been reading about Bluey's recent navigation problems:lost: here and his radio use to help him out of the situation.

 

I was taught that if there was potential for an emergency you should make a pan pan call declaring your situation (this would be done on the emergency channel right?).

 

Or if you have an emergency obviously a mayday call on the emergency channel.

 

My questions are:

 

How did Bluey contact Melbourne central, are they listening to all frequencies or is there a specific one for them?

 

Why Melbourne central, if he was flying in the vicinity of Orange then Sydney is a lot closer, don't they have a service like Melbourne?

 

By the way, I am not being critical of Bluey in any way, I think he did a great job of avoiding disaster. My motivation is to find out the stuff Bluey knows:contract: that I don't:ne_nau:

 

Regards Bill

 

 

[Guest Howard Hughes]

Hi Bill,

 

'Centre' would be the most appropriate fequency to call, the frequencies are available on an enroute, or a planning chart, probably a good idea to learn the frequency for your local area at least. 121.5 is not monitored by ATC, if you call on that frequency you will more than likely get a passing airliner, they will however be able to relay messages to centre.

 

There are only two main ATC centres in Australia, one in Brisbane and one in Melbourne. If you draw an imaginary line from about 40 miles North of Sydney, across the country to about halfway up the WA coast, everything South of that is Melbourne Centre and everything North is Brisbane.

 

You bring up a very good point though, when in doubt always ask for help!

 

Cheers, HH.:thumb_up:

 

 

[DarkSarcasm]

How did Bluey contact Melbourne central, are they listening to all frequencies or is there a specific one for them?

If I remember rightly (which I may not be so people are welcome to correct me) the frequency for Melbourne Centre is 135.70

 

 

[motzartmerv]

Darky, that depends on where you are.

 

As Howard said, the entire country (pretty much) is divided between bris and melb centers. As you travel around the place you will need to keep changing radio freq's to the area freq for THAT area. But you are still talking to the same people, its just you are tuning to a different receiving station. Obviously being quite a large country there needs to be more then one freq.

 

If you have a VNC or VTC, you can see the freq boundrys marked in green lines. A flight from say sydney to canberra would see you changing from syd radar to melbourne center, and melbourne center again but on a diffrent freq because your moving into the area covered by that particular freq. But like i said, you are still hearing the same people.

 

 

[Guest Howard Hughes]

Here are two links which provide all the 'Centre' frequncies covered by Melbourne and Brisbane, be aware that some are for high level navigation only, so it is still best to get the required frequency from a planning or enroute chart.

 

Melbourne

 

Brisbane

 

Darky 135.7 is Melbourne Radar and only available in the Melbourne basin.

 

 

[DarkSarcasm]

Thanks guys, I had a feeling there might be different ones

 

 

[Guest Howard Hughes]

Just had a flick through the two links I provided. If you would like to find your local area frequency, look at Brisbane/Melbourne whichever is applicable and note the frequency marked FIA/ACC closest to your local airfield. Frequencies marked ACC are for high level navigation only.

 

Or just check the ERSA for your local airport/field

 

Cheers, HH.

 

 

[Tomo]

G'day Bill,

 

When you are doing your x-country-ing it's good to monitor the area frequency, or have it in your radio for a quick flick to priority position in case you need it.

 

It is marked on the VTC/VNC's, but I often use the ERSA and just look at what is the Centre frequency for a particular field I could be passing. It will also tell you where you need to be to get a transmission across. Like Dalby can work on the ground on 121.2, Toowoomba you have to be up at least 500ft from the ground to get it to work. And Tooraweenah for example you need to be 4000ft up to make it work - and on 127.1. Still for Brisbane center. Some others just say in circuit area.

 

The reason they tell you that, is for canceling SAR times, you can cancel your SAR time by radio, and once you are in the circuit area, some quickly do it then. A need to do thing if you haven't got phone coverage in that area. And sometimes it won't work on the ground, as stated above.

 

Hope I'm on the right track. :big_grin:

 

 

[motzartmerv]

I hope your on the right track too Tomo, or else you may be on the wrong freq:laugh:

 

 

[skeptic36]

Thanks everyone, all good stuff:thumb_up:

 

. 121.5 is not monitored by ATC, if you call on that frequency you will more than likely get a passing airliner, they will however be able to relay messages to centre.

Howard, if nobody is continually listening to the emergency channel and you are therefore relying on chance that someone hears and then relays second hand information to ATC, wouldn't you be better off to declare your emergency on the correct ATC frequency direct to them?

 

If so why does the emergency channel exist?

 

Regards Bill

 

 

[Tomo]

121.5 is an international known distress frequency I believe. It would still work, but if you have something more reliable and within your area, you may as well use that instead. ATC doesn't monitor 121.5 I don't think.

 

Ps. Good point Merv!

 

 

[Guest Howard Hughes]

Howard, if nobody is continually listening to the emergency channel and you are therefore relying on chance that someone hears and then relays second hand information to ATC, wouldn't you be better off to declare your emergency on the correct ATC frequency direct to them?

 

Bill, this is what happens when people choose to post only a portion of a previous post, please see the post in toto below (my bolding).

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

'Centre' would be the most appropriate fequency to call, the frequencies are available on an enroute, or a planning chart, probably a good idea to learn the frequency for your local area at least. 121.5 is not monitored by ATC, if you call on that frequency you will more than likely get a passing airliner, they will however be able to relay messages to centre.

 

 

PAN PAN, PAN PAN, PAN PAN

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

I say again, centre would be the most appropriate frequency to call...;)

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[skeptic36]

Sorry Howard I should have read your post more thoroughly.

 

Perhaps the HGFA should recommend "Center" rather than 121.5 for emergency reporting in their training syllabus.

 

What does RAAus teach?

 

Regards Bill

 

 

[Tomo]

What does RAAus teach?

I was taught area frequency. Calls near an aerodrome, I reckon it would be sensible to do it on CTAF frequency also.

 

Though that gives you issues if they are trying to contact you. And you can only monitor one freq at one time.

 

 

[Guest Cloudsuck]

G'day Bill, as an ex HGFA pilot I know where you are at. The HGFA instructors really know and teach very little about radio procedures.

 

 

If you can, spend a little time with a good RAAus instructor, they will teach you how to use a map and ERSA to know which frequency to be on etc. I always fly on the proper area frequency (Brisbane/Melbourne) and use flight services often.

 

 

Prior to doing my RAAus and PPL training, I flew paramotors and I went off to a RAAus instructor and did the radio endorsement because no one in HGFA had a clue about the subject.

 

 

[Mazda]

There are two Centres, Brisbane and Melbourne, and yes they have different frequencies depending on where you are.

 

The "area" frequency may be Centre or radar, depending on where you are. If you are close to major centres the frequencies are published on the VTC and VNC. Beyond that coverage you can check the frequency on your enroute chart (ERC low). You may think of it as an IFR chart, but outside of VTCs and VNCs they are the charts which have the radio frequencies, airspace (including restricted areas) and grid lowest safe. If you are only navigating by WAC you won't have that information.

 

 

[dunlopdangler]

Another good idea is to grab a Planning Chart Australia (PCA) which contains meteorological Area Forecast boundaries and locations, communication coverage outside controlled airspace and WAC coverage. :thumb_up:

 

 

[slartibartfast]

I was concerned over Bill's apparent lack of knowledge of area frequencies too. Then it transpired that he was HGFA trained. Maybe Bill can answer that. Are you cross-country endorsed Bill? If so, let's hope it was a failure of your instructor and not the syllabus.

 

I don't think any RAAus trained cross-country endorsed pilot would not know about area frequencies, or not even know about Melb and Bris centre.

 

No slight on you Bill - good on you for asking.

 

 

[Bill Hamilton]

Folks,

 

Come the new rules for radio (see threads elsewhere) you are all going to need an up to date copy of ERSA from Airservices.

 

There is a complete section is ERSA that deals with the proper actions in an emergency, including advice on which frequency to use. I commend to you the need for a proper understanding of emergency communications.

 

There is no "HGFA" or "RAOz" way, if anybody is teaching contrary to what is in ERSA (which is ICAO standard) they have it wrong.

 

Regards,

 

 

[skeptic36]

I was concerned over Bill's apparent lack of knowledge of area frequencies too. Then it transpired that he was HGFA trained. Maybe Bill can answer that. Are you cross-country endorsed Bill? .

Yep, cross-country, passenger and radio endorsements. When I get time I will go back through my work book and double check what I learnt on the subject.

 

My memory is far from perfect on things that where only discussed while doing the theory but something as fundamental as this should be written down in my work book surely.

 

What do other HGFA pilots say? Did you all know this stuff, How did you find out?

 

Regards Bill

 

 

[Tomo]

Did with me

Same:thumb_up:

 

 

[slartibartfast]

Folks,Come the new rules for radio (see threads elsewhere) you are all going to need an up to date copy of ERSA from Airservices.

There is a complete section is ERSA that deals with the proper actions in an emergency, including advice on which frequency to use. I commend to you the need for a proper understanding of emergency communications.

 

There is no "HGFA" or "RAOz" way, if anybody is teaching contrary to what is in ERSA (which is ICAO standard) they have it wrong.

 

Regards,

I've never been a fan of evangelism.

 

We have always been required to carry a current copy of ERSA Bill.

 

 

[skeptic36]

O.K,

 

Had a read back through the workbook over breakfast.

 

I found three references to area frequencies.

 

The first was in the question: What is meant by the term SARWATCH?

 

My answer: Putting in a flight plan which details E.T.A.(must be canceled either on the area frequency prior to leaving the boundary or by telephone)

 

 

 

The second: What are the minimum calls required by a microlight outside Controlled Airspace?

 

 

 

My answer: As per question 12.5 (that was CTAF and CTAFr stuff, not relevant to this), as per VMC criteria, if we go above 5000' must advise location if requested to speak by air traffic services or other aircraft.

 

 

 

The third was found in the aviation maps and publications section: List four features of the information contained in the following maps.

 

 

 

b) ERC (Enroute chart)

 

My answer: Commonly flown routes, controlled airspace, major airports, restricted and danger areas. Instructor adds also shown Radio Area Frequencies, sport aviation use and cruising levels.

 

 

 

 

 

Looking back I suppose I should have questioned those things I obviously didn't understand/ hadn't had explained. But without the knowledge of the existence of the Area Frequency I can find several ways of explaining what I must have thought the above to mean.

 

 

 

In summary I would have to say it is a partly a HGFA problem and I have to take some blame myself for not questioning the references to Area Frequencies (the way I justify this to myself is that I must have thought area frequencies and CTAF's were the same thing (might help me through the day anyway:Flush:))

 

 

 

[motzartmerv]

Carrying an ERSA has always been the rule. It is just an Enroute supplement. ANY cross country endorsed pilot should know the radio freq procedure backwards. Looking in the ERSA for area freq's is a combersome, slow way of going about it. Thats what our charts are for.

 

Don't make the mistake of thinking that your just out of date ERSA will be ok. I did that once a few years ago and arrived at Maitland on the wrong ctaf. I clicked that something was wrong when I had half a dozen meat bomb's dropping down infront of me when on final. I heard nothing on the radio of course because i was on the old freq.

 

Alot of the problems can be put down to currency. A lot of guys (and girls) get their XC endo, then don't use it for ages. Its the sort of thing that needs to be fresh in the noodle me thinks.

 

Armchair practise flights and dummy flightplanning are a good way to stay current without actually flying.

 

cheers

 

 

[Bill Hamilton]

We have always been required to carry a current copy of ERSA Bill.

Slarti,

 

Tell me something I don't know. The fact is that there are many pilots who only ever operate in G, who don't even know what ERSA is, let alone carry one that is current, plus any NOTAM changes since the date of issue.

 

In fact, that has not really cause a lot of problems for the guys who don't go to far, and only went to local CTAFs, and CTAF® never, but the new CARs 166 clearly changes all that.

 

Regards,