Retrospective LSA ??

[bacchus]

At the risk of asking a silly question , If you purchased an aircraft today 19 REG at current 544kg , and then at a later date the aircraft in an unchanged format was granted LSA qualification and 600kg status , does your aircraft automatically assume qualification of the same status ? And therefore be used for training ? Technically from amatuer build to factory build all be it by the same person / factory ?

 

Using Morgan Sierra as an example if Garry gets his LSA as mentioned elsewhere ?

 

 

[Guest Crezzi]

No - a change in the regs isn't going to make an amateur build into a factory build so it still won't be able to be used for training.

 

If a the design is approved to a higher weight than the current limit of 544kg for 19 category than a change in the regs might allow you to a greater MTOW. But the plane is still registered as a 19 category.

 

Cheers

 

John

 

 

[bacchus]

Thanks Crezzi , so even if you were to purchase Garrys current Sierra demo ,( which is for sale ) and the next Sierra was to come off the line as an LSA ( should certification come through ) The demo is not able to become LSA even though they could be the same aircraft type , possibly built only weeks apart by the same person ?? With the only difference being one was completed before the certification paperwork had come trough ??

 

Hope I am making myself clear ?? I am purely thinking of resale value

 

 

[slartibartfast]

Call Steve Bell (Tech Manager) for the final answer.

 

 

[Guest Crezzi]

Thanks Crezzi , so even if you were to purchase Garrys current Sierra demo ,( which is for sale ) and the next Sierra was to come off the line as an LSA ( should certification come through ) The demo is not able to become LSA even though they could be the same aircraft type , possibly built only weeks apart by the same person ?? With the only difference being one was completed before the certification paperwork had come trough ??Hope I am making myself clear ?? I am purely thinking of resale value

Being registered as an LSA doesn't automatically mean it can be used for training. Factory built special-LSA can be but amateur built aircraft would be experimental-LSA and can't.

 

Currently the only reason to choose LSA category rather than ultralight is that it allows a higher MTOW for some designs. Eg a Tecnam Echo is 580kg as an LSA but is limited to 544kg if registered as an ultralight. This advantage brings a number of downsides however.

 

If or when the regs change to increase the maximum permissible MTOW for the ultralight category there will be no benefit to registering as LSA at all - effectively the category will be redundant.

 

Hope that helps

 

John

 

 

[Guest Crezzi]

You are right that some types might not be able to increase MTOW above 544kg if they don't meet the 45kt stall speed of 95.55. But IIRC the USA LSA regs require the same stall speed of 45kt to be met clean whereas 95.55 is in landing configuration ?

 

 

[jetjr]

I think Lightning has wing extensions, which suits Homebuilt and without for GA (higher speed) These changes were mostly around slowing the AC up to 120kts max

 

Here, not having top speed limitation ALL lightnings can run without extensions and still make 45kts stall.

 

Once the MTOW rises - one day - it will bw able to go as high as manufacturer states it can whilst still being under max stall speed of 45kts.

 

LSA may not become redundant as they could easily say 19 reg homebuilts still cant be used for training.

 

 

[SilverWing]

Retrospective LSA

 

First, my understanding of the terms:

 

S-LSA = factory built LSA

 

E-LSA = amateur built 'experimental' LSA, even if just a few nuts & bolts are installed.

 

'Normal' RA-Aus = either Type Certified factory built, or amateur built recreational aircraft.

 

There is an important difference between 'normal' RA-Aus and S-LSA: 'normal' RA-Aus aircraft have to have a Type Certificate, issued by the CASA-equivalent of an 'acceptable' ICAO signatory country. Just through the history of recreational/ultralight aircraft development, many of these types are based on (or actually are) 450kgs MTOW aircraft as defined by many European countries.

 

Quite a few of these aircraft can be beefed up to handle more weight - but if so, they have to have a new Type Certificate at the new weight issued in an acceptable country. Many countries just do not have the legislation which allows Type Certificates to be issued over 450kgs MTOW unless the aircraft are fully GA-certified (ie expensive, so most do not). Some manufacturers have got round this problem by obtaining higher weight Type Certificates from countries in South America, the Middle East and a few other lesser known parts of the world.

 

Interestingly, the Czech Republic has a special system for approving recreational aircraft with over 450kgs MTOW, which may in part explain the relatively high frequency of Czech designs on the S-LSA list. My understanding is that the UK, Germany, Italy, France etc do not have legislation which enables certification of factory built ultralights over 450kgs (or 472.5kgs when fitted with a BRS).

 

S-LSAs are, in effect, certified by the manufacturer as compliant with all the ASTM design, manufacture and flight envelope specifications/regulations. Currently the limit for these aircraft is 600kgs (land) and 650kgs (water) or such lower limit as the manufacturer stipulates.

 

Thus, a Type Certified 450kgs (or 544kgs) aircraft cannot simply be boosted to 600kgs unless it has an acceptable Type Certificate at that weight. The only way for the manufacturer to go economically to 600kgs is the LSA route.

 

And there are differences between individual country Type Certificate requirements and between these and ASTM standards - not necessarily higher or lower standards, just different.

 

I have been told by Steve Bell at RA-Aus that S-LSA aircraft cannot be registered as 'normal' RA-Aus aircraft (whatever their weight limit) as they do not have a Type Certificate. So I think most 600kgs imported aircraft will have to be registered as LSAs if the owner wants to take advantage of the extra weight.

 

Finally, LSA or 'normal' RA-Aus aircraft not wholly built by the factory can only ever be 'experimental' registered and cannot be used for training. Although the occasional manufacturer has sought to get round this with 'factory-assist' build schemes and the like. Even factory built LSAs which have been modified without written factory agreement are 'demoted' to E-LSA and again cannot (ever) be used for training.

 

 

[SilverWing]

LSA stall speeds

 

In USA the speed limits are:

 

Stall - 45 knots 'clean' ie flaps up. Retractable gear and VP props are not allowed under USA LSA regs.

 

Top speed, straight & level - 120 kts.

 

In Australia the speed limits are:

 

Stall - 45 kts in 'landing configuration' ie flaps down as much as you want, prop fully fine. VP props are allowed in Australia but not retractable gear.

 

Top speed, straight & level - no limit

 

Weight limits are the same (allowing for metric/imperial conversion), same single engine limit, up to 2 seats etc - all the same.

 

 

[jetjr]

I had always presumed the 45 kts was in landing config. But, having done some checking, I find the FAA talking about "Maximum stall speed of 45 knots" and at some of the LSA manufacturers' websites a reference to 45 knots clean. It certainly would require a big rework to get a J160 down from 53 KCAS to 45.

Yeah I think we have an advantage here too, Australia is Stall Dirty, others are stall clean

 

 

[Bill Hamilton]

'experimental' registered and cannot be used for training.

Folks,

 

Is this really a correct statement.

 

A VH- Experimental Amateur Built can certainly be used for training of the owner/builder(s), why is an RAOz registered Experimental Amateur Built any different?

 

Regards,

 

 

[SilverWing]

Yes, sorry for the confusion - my understanding is that any amateur built aircraft can be used by the builder for his/her own training. My focus was on commercial training, which requires the aircraft to be factory built.

 

 

[Bill Hamilton]

Bacchus,

 

The answer is quite simple:

 

If the manufacturer will issue an amended LSA Type Certificate to operate the relevant serial number aircraft at the higher weight ---- The answer is YES.

 

Otherwise: NO.

 

Possibly operating it in the Experimental Cat. is a different kettle of fish and/or can of worms.

 

Regards,

 

 

[bacchus]

Thanks Bill

 

Makes sense to me.

 

 

[Modest Pilot]

A factory built LSA can be registered for training or private only.

 

The advantage is a private only can be maintained by an L1 owner and thats includes the new owner if the aircraft is sold.