Nose Wheel Endorsement

[bilby54]

A couple of us were idling watching a few aircraft land when we were impressed by the landing skills of the RPT.

 

The Dash 8 landed fairly long and casually touched down nose wheel first just micro seconds in front of the main wheels. It took a while for it to register and both of us remarked about it at the same time so it wasn't just my imagination. Probably training a new F/O but it should really have been a go round.

 

No, I won't say who the operator was in the white aircraft with the red tail:cool:

 

 

[Tomo]

Maybe he was an ex Hercules stunt pilot....... ;)

 

 

[Barefootpilot]

Glass houses! Just because they fly for a living doesn't mean they don't have bad days!

 

 

[Relfy]

The two roughest commercial landings I've had were on the one flight. The first was at Roma arriving from Charleville where the controlling pilot slammed all wheels straight onto the deck with a horrible creaking noise and yaw feeling, even though the weather was perfect. The roughest was the landing at Brisbane after leaving Roma! I'm sure we were trying to pick up the third wire on the deck in a rolling sea in a storm after my third pass and visit to the air to air refueller!

 

Similarly though, the airline must love Aussie fauna as one prominent animal appears on the tail. i_dunno Still though, some of my landings were nothing short of unceremonious arrivals!

 

 

[bilby54]

Glass houses! Just because they fly for a living doesn't mean they don't have bad days!

A bad day with 50 or so passengers can be a real bad daythumb_down

 

I was questioning the professionalism of the crew to continue the approach beyond the touchdown area and force the nose wheel on first. Every pilot knows how to go round.:):)

 

 

[Geoff]

:wasnt me:Yes but how many know when to

 

 

[planedriver]

:wasnt me:Yes but how many know when to

Good to see you posting Geoff.

 

Maybe i'm wrong?, but have'nt too seen many posts since we used to give you a bit of a hard time in jest. No offence intended, but sometimes we'd get a bit carried away.:hittinghead:

 

Glad I was'nt on that Dash 8 flight as there have been a few nosewheels come adrift, but none of us are perfect, all of the time.

 

 

[bilby54]

:wasnt me:Yes but how many know when to

That's worrying to say the least!!!!

If the damned thing is going to smack the bitumen with a highly trained crew, why are they flying?i_dunnoi_dunno

 

 

[Guest ozzie]

probably the real fresh first officer doing his first landings.

 

 

[Guest Andys@coffs]

As someone who spends much more time than I want in Dash 8's I can say without a doubt that all of the worst landings Ive even seen/ been in are on those aircraft. To put it simply the flair just wasnt there! (or alternately a flareless flair)

 

Ab initio training aircraft are pressumed to have the worst treatment, and my Jaby like all the others was built for that environment, yet it would fail in very short order if I treated it that same way and drove it on every time.

 

Is there someone in the know that can tell me if D8's are difficult to land compared to other RPT aircraft, or is there some standing instruction based on something we dont know about that says "slam it on every time!" Often its the case that after one where I wonder if I'll need a neck brace, I expect to see a PIC or FO who looks about 16 with about that many hrs experience and end up seeing crew that dont fit that expectation in any way (ie look as though they have 20+ yrs of commercial flying each). At Coffs the main runway can take a 767 so its not as though length is in short supply. All Ive concluded is that they fly it like they dont own it!

 

Andy

 

 

[facthunter]

No Flare.

 

Some "checkies" may be a bit obsessed with touching down on the piano keys, so the "plant it on", mentality might come from there. I have observed quite a few medium sized jets landing lately, where ther is virtually no flare and no attempt to "decrab" either.

 

Since most commercial aircraft approach at a slight to fair amount of nose up attitude, (unless they are approached at above normal speed) to put the nose on first would have to be the result of deliberate action from the pilot. WHY is the question. Hard on the plane and not really the safest thing to do. (Unless the RWY is very short and there is some necessity to get the plane down quickly. Nev

 

 

[Barefootpilot]

All modern RPT aircraft are monitered very closely by Ops to point where they know exactly where they touch down. They are required to touch down on the 1000' markers +- a certain amount depending on company policy. If they do not they are required to go around or they will have a please explain phone call from the boss.

 

Just think if you flew 8 sectors a day 5 days a week you will eventually have a bad landing if not a run of bad landings so please be nice to these guys they can't be perfect like you every time!!!

 

 

[facthunter]

response.

 

your last sentence is totally uncalled for, Nev

 

 

[Guest Andys@coffs]

All modern RPT aircraft are monitered very closely by Ops to point where they know exactly where they touch down. They are required to touch down on the 1000' markers +- a certain amount depending on company policy. If they do not they are required to go around or they will have a please explain phone call from the boss. Just think if you flew 8 sectors a day 5 days a week you will eventually have a bad landing if not a run of bad landings so please be nice to these guys they can't be perfect like you every time!!!

Of late Im putting in about 4-6 landings in D-8's a month. The routes I fly for every D-8 sector also includes a 737 sector. The number of landings in the 737 that are bone shaking are a fraction of those that I see in the D-8's.

 

I pressume that the pilot scheduling and workload is probably not all that different between the 2 given that the 737 sectors are only between 0 and 20 minutes longer than the D-8 times. So unless there is something different between the 2 the results should be about the same shouldnt they?

 

I never claimed to be better or worse, the only difference is that as the owner of my aircraft if I slam it in and rapidly accelerate airframe life consumption the I have the joy of paying for it. I do accept that everyone has great landings as they also will have those that they'd rather not talk about, hopefully the ratio's, like a bell curve mean that the extremes are just that, and the majority are perfectly functional and acceptable. WHat I want to understand is why my experiences suggest that is not the case with D-8's.

 

I still would like to hear if this is just me and an unlucky run or if it is syptomatic. If the later then it can only be to the carriers detriment and I dont understand why its happening. If as you suggest there is a driver to land at the 1000ft runway markings, at coffs that means you "only" have 5500 ft remaining. Surely forcing a high impact/stress scenario, where it simply isnt needed doesnt sound logical. I would have though if a D8-400 landed anywhere in the 1st 2500ft it will still able to come to a complete stop miles before the 1000ft marker at the other end at Coffs, and if the conditions meant that wasnt the case then as you say go around

 

Andy

 

 

[bilby54]

No one said that any of us are 'perfect' so go easy :)

 

The landing that we observed was made with the D8 nose wheel touching down first on the 1500' marker so it was fairly obvious that it was a poorly set up approach. I have also noticed the trend away from holding the nose wheel off until the mains are firmly planted... maybe an operational instruction?

 

We were just surprised that a go round was not initiated, professional pilot or not thumb_down

 

 

[Tomo]

The D8 I've seen come into Twmba (only seen it actually touch down half dozen times) but they have been back wheels first, nose wheel a few seconds later.

 

 

[Guest Andys@coffs]

I guess it was to be expected.....

 

Last night as I landed to the north is Sydney in a D8-400 (named yepoon) , the transition from flying to taxiing was so smooth that I couldnt honest say when it occured especially as there was no immediate tossing out of all anchors, rather we ran almost to the end of the strip before slowing a bit and then took the high speed taxi exit....Obviously the pilot has been following this thread, or noticed a defected landing gear in coffs but wanted to get back to base (Joke boys!!)

 

Andy

 

BTW, recently purchase noise cancelling in ear, ear buds from panasonic. These are perfect on a D8 when seated between the props (row 6,7, and 8....avoid at all cost) ... not as good as my Telex 50D's but I'd look a bit odd with them on...A good compromise

 

 

[Barefootpilot]

Nev, It wasn't a shot at you! and I appoligise if it seem that way! Its just that its easy to jump on the band wagon of pilot bashing!

 

 

[facthunter]

response.

 

Sure , The concept of pilot error is a simple explanaton for a very complex problem. Sometimes the world expects the most extraordinary results from humans in cockpits in a few seconds,when it takes a committee weeks or more to deliberate the "proper" course of action. My point on the specific subject we were talking about is the incorrect emphasis on landing on a precise point on the runway and neglecting the fact that the action required to "plant " the plane there puts it in a situation that the designers of the plane would never have expected it to have been exposed to. The main gear is designed to cope with a certain "sink" rate and certain side loads. The nosewheel is another consideration.. The technique is wrong. You should apply rules to situations. To not touch down on the piano keys at Darwin for example and do a go-around on RWY 11 at 1330 Lmt when there is an enormous amount of runway in front of you ,and also the usual wind change that comes through everyday, is getting your priorities "out of kilt".. We should not constrain line pilots who know what is going on "out there". with OPS out of context restrictions. "Big Brother" overseeing the cockpit won't always produce the best results, but maybe that is what the future is.

 

Regards Nev

 

 

[Deskpilot]

As an aside to the previous discussion, is there a tricycle endorsement as such for those who learn in tail dragger's?

 

 

[facthunter]

tricycle endorsement.

 

The way I understand it YES. There was in GA. Nev

 

 

[Geoff]

Maybe i'm wrong?, but have'nt too seen many posts since we used to give you a bit of a hard time in jest. No offence intended, but sometimes we'd get a bit carried away

 

No offence taken Planedriver truth is to many people have stopped drinking wine and I have had to go back trucking "no money in grapes" on holl's now and have the time.

 

 

[Barefootpilot]

Nev,

 

I couldn't agree more! Bean counters and desk flyers should stick at what they are good at (god knows what that is but i'm sure they have some talent!!) Some restictions that they place on line pilots that they believe will improve safety actually cause more problems that they cure!

 

Adam

 

 

[facthunter]

true.

 

You have got it right there. I am in furious agreement. Thanks for your comments. The best days were a while ago..tho there were some weird things that went on ..Nev