Electronic ERSA

[shags_j]

Don't do it. There are far more powerful and effective items than the iphone or ipad.

 

Make sure you do some research before buying.

 

 

[shags_j]

Hey BASS,

 

Just out of interest, this doesn't affect us at all does it? or are you getting around that one?

 

Aeronautical Information Package (AIP)

 

Copyright Notice

All Airservices Australia Aeronautical Information Service material and publications (AIS Publications) are copyright. This specifically includes all elements of the Integrated Aeronautical Information Package (IAIP).

 

Unless specified otherwise, AIS Publications may be used only for viewing (in an unaltered form which retains this notice) for information purposes.

 

Except as permitted above and by the Copyright Act 1968, no part of the AIS Publications may be reproduced, stored in a retrieval system, transmitted, redistributed, republished or commercially exploited in any way without the prior written permission of Airservices Australia.

I was planning on changing mine given the above, to jsut notify user that an update is available. Would love to have given them the option to download but I guess the closest we can get is to provide the link to the download like in your initial release.

 

 

[Guest basscheffers]

Lets go through the points:

 

- no part of the AIS Publications may be reproduced

 

We are not reproducing anything.

 

- stored in a retrieval system

 

Not doing that either; copies are made directly from their website to the device of the user.

 

- transmitted

 

We're not "transmitting" anything; ASA is doing that for us.

 

- redistributed

 

We're not "distributing" any of their data; ASA is doing that for us.

 

- republished

 

Nope.

 

- or commercially exploited

 

Nope, not charging anything for the app. Even if we were, they might as well sue Microsoft for selling a browser used to access their website.

 

What's happening with the app is no different from accessing the data through a web browser. Yes, temporary copies are being made to display and cache the data, but again this is no different from using a browser and is permissible under the 2006 Copyright Ammendment Act.

 

It would be different if I downloaded all the data and bundled it with the app, or put a bundle of new data on a server of mine. (a "retrieval system") But I am not doing any of those things. The only thing my app will contain are titles and URLs. Titles are specifically exempt from copyright and URLs are exempt as proven by case law. (The media companies have tried their best, and failed, to make it illegal to link to copyrighted material)

 

So nothing to worry about here.

 

 

[shags_j]

Good points. Thanks.

 

 

[sseeker]

Lets go through the points:- no part of the AIS Publications may be reproduced

 

We are not reproducing anything.

 

- stored in a retrieval system

 

Not doing that either; copies are made directly from their website to the device of the user.

 

- transmitted

 

We're not "transmitting" anything; ASA is doing that for us.

 

- redistributed

 

We're not "distributing" any of their data; ASA is doing that for us.

 

- republished

 

Nope.

 

- or commercially exploited

 

Nope, not charging anything for the app. Even if we were, they might as well sue Microsoft for selling a browser used to access their website.

 

What's happening with the app is no different from accessing the data through a web browser. Yes, temporary copies are being made to display and cache the data, but again this is no different from using a browser and is permissible under the 2006 Copyright Ammendment Act.

 

It would be different if I downloaded all the data and bundled it with the app, or put a bundle of new data on a server of mine. (a "retrieval system") But I am not doing any of those things. The only thing my app will contain are titles and URLs. Titles are specifically exempt from copyright and URLs are exempt as proven by case law. (The media companies have tried their best, and failed, to make it illegal to link to copyrighted material)

 

So nothing to worry about here.

So... What would be the point in the app? I thought the whole idea was that you could store the data on the phone for quick access, especially when you're out of reception. If you 'cache' the files it'll be using a retrieval system to get the files. I can access the air services website from my iPhone bookmarks and download the file easily. Is it more of an 'ease of use' thing?

 

-Andrew

 

 

[shags_j]

Ease of use, notification of updates etc.

 

 

[Guest basscheffers]

So... What would be the point in the app? I thought the whole idea was that you could store the data on the phone for quick access, especially when you're out of reception.

This will happen. Maybe not in v1, will have to see. But it will happen.

 

If you 'cache' the files it'll be using a retrieval system to get the files.

No it's not: Document retrieval - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

 

I can access the air services website from my iPhone bookmarks and download the file easily. Is it more of an 'ease of use' thing?

I've been putting a lot of thought into the interface. You think you can easily download the PDF now, but you can't, not compared to using the app. :big_grin:

 

 

[Guest davidh10]

I'm wondering how many pilots download the PDF pages of ERSA from AirServices Australia's NAIPS. ...

I do. Not all of them, but selected items as needed for planning etc.

 

It's a bit hard to carry a laptop in a trike, and using both hands to fiddle with a smartphone / PDA is'nt possible if your'e being bumped around.

 

My GPS (Garmin Aera 550) has info for aerodromes, including CTAF, PAL and FIR frequencies, runways, surfaces and circuit directions. This is an easy one finger lookup, since the GPS is mounted on the dashboard. Needless to say, you need to check it is correct.

 

For Navs, I download DAPs and put them on the back of my map.

 

I use the downloaded ALA Decode, VFR / IFR Waypoints to assist with understanding the WX, which I get from the "Pilot Briefing service".

 

PDF isn't the best medium unless you just want to print it. I'd prefer XML from the web site and rendered using XSLT. From this base it is easy to render in different ways / formats and to turn these into PDF should you want to do so.

 

Remember that doing all this for anyone but yourself would violoate the licence agreement under which you access the information, unless you get a specific, separate license from Airservices Australia.

 

----------

 

XML=Extensible Markup Language. XSLT=Extensible Style Sheet Transformation.

 

 

[Guest davidh10]

... and the whole AIP should be HTML.

Actually XML would be more useful, as much of the information is actual data, not just text.

 

What I mean by that is that if it is HTML, the rendered format is controlled by Tags and Attributes, but these all relate to rendering, so a computer or application does not know which paragraph, for instance is the PAL_Frequency, vs the Aerodrome_Height. In XML the Tags describe the data, making it easy to identify programmatically. XSLT can be supplied in the web site and used so it renders nicely in a browser, but you can download the XML page and write your own XSLT to transform it in different ways, say for an iPhone screen, or formatted in different ways. For those who aren't good at XSLT, someone else could write them and publish them for others to use.

 

This approach complies with the licensing, as you are only storing what you are allowed to download and use for your own purposes. You aren't even changing the data pages, just rendering them differently for display on your own device.

 

If anyone is still awake ;) and wants an explanation of XML / XSLT, I'll be happy to oblige.

 

 

[Guest basscheffers]

ASA is involved with AIXM (EUROCONTROL - Aeronautical Information Exchange) but:

 

a) don't expect this to be used for years to come, if ever and

 

b) It'll be a cold day in hell before ASA makes it publicly available. They'll sell it to the likes of Jepessen instead.

 

In the mean time, we'll have to make do with what we've got.

 

It's working, by the way. The app needs more work, but I have the index scraping from the website down pat and it's displaying the GEN PDFs at the moment. It'll be good.

 

 

[ossie]

They'll sell it to the likes of Jepessen instead.

AsA tried that with Jepp along with a number of other data providers, and lost the court case. During proceedings Jepp threatened not to publish Australian data in any of their publications. The "ruffling of feathers" that caused was amazing...... .... One or two AsA AIS guys lost their jobs over it.

 

AsA had/have this strange belief that Australian data is theirs, and will let you use it as long as it's in the format/media we (AsA) provide, and you pay for it.

 

Jepp or any other data provider don't pay for it as you may think, but that's another argument I guess.

 

A word of warning though and tread carefully, AsA will come after you if you step outside their guidelines. That loss in court didn't go down all that well.

 

 

[Guest davidh10]

Interesting link Bas.

 

I'm inclined to agree with you, but it is interesting to see that such work is already in use by the Estonian Air Navigation Service, circa December, 2009. (http://www.nat.nl/Download/NAT/Momberger_872ATC.pdf page 1, 2nd news item).

 

Also interesting to note that there is one Open Source project using the model and schema, albeit only to produce some libraries at this stage.

 

Looks like early implementation is centered around "Digital NOTAM" and that full AIP is down the road even further.

 

Paradoxically, ASA may have some motivation to move earlier rather than later, as they are currently feeling the pain themselves, as disclosed on page 3 of http://www.icao.or.th/meetings/2009/aaitf4/ip10.pdf where they have to maintain two teams of people to manually extract, manipulate and then re-enter data from ADMS (the database behind the web apps we use) and TAAARTS, which supports AIXM data.

 

ASA is facing the combined motivation of escalating expense to maintain the existing system, and a growing mismatch between it and the industry requirements for services. This paraphrased from their own words. Read about "Project Mercury".

 

All that said, it will still be years away, but the wheels are turning:juggle: ;)

 

[url=http://www.icao.or.th/meetings/2009/aaitf4/ip10.pdf][/url]

 

 

[Guest basscheffers]

That's interesting, that Jeppesen doesn't have to pay.

 

It's an absurd and (near) unique to Australia situation where this data isn't available for free to anyone.

 

I'd like to see it available and, just like we have experimental airframes, engine and instruments, have "experimental data"; both data providers and devices that use it. Naturally, like experimental aircraft there will be limitations on when and where you can use it (non-IFR, non-commercial, etc), but on the whole it would be a good thing.

 

If they set the data free, there's going to be some amazingly innovative things done with it that nobody's thought of before. That's how opening up data, software and standards work - and the closed, certified providers will reap the benefits from making commercial implementations of the innovations.

 

 

[Guest burbles1]

Actually XML would be more useful, as much of the information is actual data, not just text.

I'm sure that epub or even HTML pages, which had already been generated from XML and XSLT, would be the preferred end product. XML is for tech writers and editors, not for the average computer user. It'd be excellent when (if?) Air Services offers this format, as you could then read it on an ebook reader, iPhone, or whatever.

 

 

[Guest watto]

I believe that once the I pad is up and going for 12 to 18 months the possabilities are endless in aviation including plugging your GPS into it or via blutooth it could be used as a larger display as well as a rival to the dynon sky view, just needs some nerd out there to see the benefit and write the appropriate software.

 

 

[Guest davidh10]

I'm sure that epub or even HTML pages, which had already been generated from XML and XSLT, would be the preferred end product. XML is for tech writers and editors, not for the average computer user. It'd be excellent when (if?) Air Services offers this format, as you could then read it on an ebook reader, iPhone, or whatever.

While I agree that the end user is not in the least interested in the technology used to deliver the content, the people who [wish to] produce the apps to deliver it are. XML is also for computers (apps) to consume.

 

By publishing XML with an appropriate XSLT, the end user just sees a web page, while a more intelligent application, which could live in a web page or otherwise (iPad, iPhone, OtherPDA, PC, NetBook...), can manipulate the data to present just what the reader wanted in a more concise rendition, and obtained more quickly.

 

IMHO, ERSA is used more as a reference book, than read cover to cover, or even a chapter at a time. Generally the information is wanted in a concise form and is more convenient if it is able to be found with minimal effort.

 

Epub seems to lack a number of key capabilities unless the content is analogous to a novel. One such disadvantage seems to be the poor ability to support internal cross linking. The content uses XHTML, which still isn't data, but just separating content and presentation information. The other one would seem to be that it is a virtual book. ERSA is data, so it would be no more friendly than all being in indexed PDFs, which I find much less friendly than linked web pages.

 

The more data is transcribed from one data provider to another, the more errors seem to creep in. By passing the data in a form that preserves its integrity removes the concern that apps generated by non-official sources, may contain erroneous data. XML documents could contain a hash of the data to verify that the document was transmitted intact, or even a digital signature to verify the authenticity of the content (again used by the app, not necessarily the person directly).

 

It could even mean that the need for intermediaries to transcribe the data into licensable data packs goes away. All they need to do is provide the app to collect, cache, update and present the data. Thus reducing the distribution of erroneous data.

 

 

[Guest basscheffers]

just needs some nerd out there to see the benefit and write the appropriate software.

One of the problems is market size. This stuff isn't easy and to do it right, you need to make it your job. And to make it your job, you need lots of sales. Selling 2000 copies a year for even $100 bucks isn't going to do it. (Apple takes their 30% cut, then you have to pay Jeppesen or AsA for data, etc.)

There are some fantastic Apps for the North American market, but not available here. Our only hope is those developers will use their platform and put in Australian data, because we'll never get that quality of application by a local developer for only the Australian market.

 

Just my opinion.

 

 

[Guest burbles1]

In the big changes coming on 3 June, I've caught wind in a couple of threads that you now need to carry ERSA to be legal on all flights - is that right? Can someone point me to the authority that states this please.

 

And if this is correct, does it mean you need to carry the entire ERSA? Or can you get away with downloading the relevant pages from ERSA-FAC and carrying just those relevant to your flight?

 

 

[shags_j]

Probably should be in a seperate post burbles

 

 

[wizzard1964]

I notice it does not rotate when you turn the Iphone 90 deg, Is that likley to be an option?

 

 

[perthjay85]

ah excellent the i(version) of ERSA.

 

thanks for letting us know one was available.

 

I have been waiting for ozRunways from the guy who did NAIPS.

 

but now I will probably download your IERSA from the appstore.

 

cheers

 

 

[Steve Donald]

Ersa

 

Hi I HAVE THE COMPLETE CURRENT ERSA FILE WORKS ON MOST PHONES AS WELL AS A PDF FILE .

 

Whoops sorry about the caps lock, i also use a 7inch windows pro flat pc touch screen with a solid state drive, so it is shock proof chrome screen bright and clear in all light full moving map, instument page gps TOGGLE FULL PAGE AH or multi instrument full AUS TERRAIN AND AIRPORT DATA STRIP DATA EASY TO SEE INTERNET ON WITH WEATHER RADAR IN REAL TIME , The processor speed and RAM blows Garmins and Avmaps out of the water gps report time of .2of a sec AH and VSI REAL TIME, and sooooo cheap everything cost about $500 takes me about 3 hours to set up and ya set, you have your office with you as well, just an interest for me i am doing a few for locals here as well beat the expence somehow, best thing is like your pc at home you minimise it hit the taskbar with radar or a movie for the passenger naturally or media player music all in one bundle it is bullet proof the first one which is mine i gave it hell in my 4x4 no problem, also will interface with auto pilot and engine instuments same as efis dynon only much faster and more powerful it has a dme funtion nearest airports and distance is always visable as well as nav aids, i will be doing some instrument test flying as passenger, we have a commercial Cpt here who is keen to play with it i will report more after that but so far i am gona bin the 296 cheers sorry no comas too tired PS oh it is 12volt as well just a lighter adapter 12in 12 out

 

 

[wildnrg]

Hi I HAVE THE COMPLETE CURRENT ERSA FILE WORKS ON MOST PHONES AS WELL AS A PDF FILE EMAIL ME I WILL SEND IT.

LoL

I'd love to distribute the ERSA in PDF format, but that would be breach of the Copyright Act.

 

The only legal way to do it is for people to download it themselves from ASA using a computer, or if you're lucky enough, an iPad.

 

 

[djpacro]

In the big changes coming on 3 June, I've caught wind in a couple of threads that you now need to carry ERSA to be legal on all flights - is that right? Can someone point me to the authority that states this please...

I recall another thread a little while ago which dealt with this. Anyway, start with Reg #233, Responsibility of pilot in command before flight:

(1) The pilot in command of an aircraft must not commence a flight if he or she has not received evidence, and taken such action as is necessary to ensure, that:........

(h) the latest editions of the aeronautical maps, charts and other aeronautical information and instructions, published in AIP or by a person approved in writing, that are applicable:

 

(i) to the route to be flown; and

 

(ii) to any alternative route that may be flown on that flight;

 

are carried in the aircraft and are readily accessible to the flight crew.

 

Penalty: 50 penalty units.

 

....... And if this is correct, does it mean you need to carry the entire ERSA? Or can you get away with downloading the relevant pages from ERSA-FAC and carrying just those relevant to your flight?

I guess you need to read the AIP and carefully read the regulation above (I have no knowledge of any exemptions or differences for RAA registered machines).I have my favourite pages from ERSA on my Nokia E51.

 

 

[wildnrg]

Well according to that extract it says "applicable to the route" or alternative route, so I would think that you wouldn't need every chart or the entire ersa.

 

It also doesn't say paper copy, which in 2010 electronic documents should be ok because it was published by the same authority and if u downloaded it from that authority should be accurate.

 

Either way I carry my iPad and as a backup there is my iPhone both have my electronic software and weather, and if they both fail, then I will have to dig around In the back seats for the paper ersa.