Drifter Double Fatality near Lismore

[Bubbleboy]

Seb...well put mate. I never have had the knack of candy coating the truth....must work on that one.

 

Scotty

 

 

[HEON]

We are now into page 6!

 

While I have an OPINION on what may have happened, I do not KNOW

 

Why do we not ALL take a Bex and have a good lie down until we KNOW!

 

What ever the outcome it will NOT effect the pilot...why do we not let the families bury them without any more hints of wrong doing.

 

Surely Ian it is time to end this UNTIL some ACTUAL information is presented

 

 

[Captain]

Unfortunately these matters run almost to a script....An accident occurs.....

 

a couple of posts appear on the forums...quoting the ABC...or Blah Blah Times...

 

then a few people hint they may know those affected...

 

then another news item appears that suggests a particular location/aircraft type....

 

then the shrillness increases..

 

now everyone wants to post condolences...

 

then someone says..i was at xxx and that same a/c did....

 

and someone else says...i agree...not good airmanship....

 

then someone says....i've found that a/c on utube..

 

then lots of ooohs and aahhs about the content of the videos...

 

someone says...i knew it would happen....

 

many agree....(who did something about it?)

 

then the speculation of wat actually happened takes over.......

 

noone was there...but many know....(or do they).....

 

Sorry boys and girls, I think these sorts of accidents need to be reported and then everyone needs to take a deep breath (contain their enthusiasm) and let the people with the job of finding out the why/what and where, get to work.

 

There will be an inquest/coronial enquiry...the Coroner will examine all the evidence and recieve advice from expert witnesses....perhaps we should save our "post morteum" until then...

Then someone urges that open debate & discussion be stifled.

 

 

[Tracktop]

We are now into page 6!

 

Why do we not ALL take a Bex and have a good lie down until we KNOW!

agree

 

And to change the subject

 

do they still make Bex?

 

It's a long time since I heard that name mentioned ;)

 

 

[Captain]

Hey Cap

There is no debate.

 

The discussion starts after the pain subsides.

 

and clear heads prevail...........

Sorry CFI, but I respectfully disagree.

 

A number of times I have seen well meaning contributors, or those wishing to hush things up, plead for a lack of discussion after an accident, and sometimes doing so in the names of families and friends (some have in the past claimed that family were reading posts even when they weren't forum members) ......... and then nothing.

 

If the accident aircraft was indeed the one in the You-Tube exposes, then the pilot was quite willing to put it all out-there and as such it is worthy of discussion.

 

I am happy to leave it for the moderators to clamp down on anything distasteful in this thread and others.

 

I have said it before in one of these discussions of an accident, if I ever go in, don't let any well meaning forum member suppress any discussion of what happened. Unless of course I have been doing aero's for months, perhaps even without an endorsement.

 

Regards Geoff

 

 

[lbarnes]

This is how the Aircraft was advertised in April 08

 

1225 Fisher Mk1. 19-4268 110 TTAF, 50 TSMOH, Wire-braced, Rotax 503, Icom A22, Garmin GPS Map 96C, ALT, ASI, Tach, EGT, Brolga

 

Prop, intercom w/headsets, full pod and canopy, airfoil struts, Long range quick connect fuel tank = 5 hrs., Always hangared in Byron Bay,

 

Immaculate, Reluctant sale, Beauty to fly. $18,900.

 

With this photo:

 

The owner supplied the following photos:

 

Inspection of the aircraft by myself revealed the following:

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

As it turned out the vendor's version of immaculate and my own differed necessitating a rethink of the AC. Further research revealed that the AC had a history and the corrosion problems led me to abandon the purchase.

 

To my horror, a few weeks later the new owner had posted on Youtube (since removed) his test taxis and circuits at Tyagarah. The person shooting the video was a woman with a crying baby in the background. I immediately sent a message to the new owner raising my concerns about the flying wires. He replied that he had got a bargain but did not indicate if the wires had been replaced.

 

I can't stop thinking about those bloody wires and the description of the eye witness of the wing folding up. Maybe i should have tossed a match in the damn thing when I had the chance.

 

Luke

 

 

[pudestcon]

Wow!!! Very graphic photos lbarnes. I make no judgement about the airworthiness of the aircraft at the time of the accident but your photos make my skin crawl nonetheless. Nothing short of a complete replacement of flying wires and bolts would suffice it seems to me, along with a very thorough complete inspection.

 

Condolences to the families at this sad time.

 

Regards,

 

Pud

 

 

[Guest Crezzi]

Then someone urges that open debate & discussion be stifled.

Then, several years later, everyone will be still waiting for the facts of the case to be published.

 

John

 

 

[Guest Escadrille]

I think the debate will eventually move to a discussion about what self regulation really means for the RAAUS and as such we should move this discussion to a new thread and leave the disturbing events here.

 

 

[Admin]

(On behalf of a guest user

 

)

 

Absolutely Wrong!

 

As some members have pointed out it is absolutely wrong to speculate on a cause of the accident before all the facts are known. Judgement is being passed on hearsay and very little evidence and unfortunately the person concerned is not in a position to defend themselves.

 

The reason that neither RA-Aus nor anyone close to the investigation can offer comment or clarification is that the accident report is being prepared for the Coroner and only the Coroner can make a determination on the cause of the accident after all the relevant facts are known. For RA-Aus or anyone else to comment before the facts are known is to invite a heavy penalty should a Coroner feel pre-disposed to do so.

 

If the crash investigator were to discover a safety problem with implications for the rest of the fleet, then RA-Aus would be notified with the Coroner’s concurrence and corrective action undertaken to prevent any further re-occurrence. In this case no such notification has been given to RA-Aus to the best of my knowledge.

 

To speculate on one eye-witness report published in a newspaper is to tar us with the same sensationalist brush that can be applied to the Newspaper in question. From my own experience In other incidents I have had three separate eye-witness reports to the same incident and have had three different versions of the same event. I have it from a very impeccable source that the wing did not depart the aircraft in this instance and was still attached at impact.

 

I have posted this anonymously to protect my sources of information, if it serves no other purpose other than to make folk stop and take stock before perhaps committing the error of pre-empting the Coroner's finding and being found in contempt by making statements that are incorrect.

 

Before jumping in and condemning a deceased fellow pilot based on hearsay only, reflect how you would feel if you were the unfortunate victim in an accident and your family were informed of the ill-informed erroneous comments on what caused the accident instead of waiting for the facts to be correctly established.

 

 

[motzartmerv]

Exactly...

 

 

[Guest JRMobile]

Thank you Ian , Well said!

 

 

[Spin]

This discussion seems to following the standard pattern; although I have some sympathy for the mute camp having gone through the postmortem phase with a friend, in this instance the incident has opened up a much wider debate and rightly so in my opinion. If it makes just one cowboy stop to think or someone reconsider flying an aircraft in poor condition, then it has served the intended purpose.

 

I have some issues with the post by Ian's guest though, sounds very much like someone close to the deceased understandably trying to stop what he/she perceives as a witch hunt. Whilst there may be some issues with the eye witness reports (although I understood that the wing was said to have folded back, not departed:question:), the youtube videos, Tomo's dads observations of the cable condition, lbarnes photos of their condition when purchased, observations of the pilot's behaviour at Inglewood, these collectively point to something other than "speculation based on one eye witness report published in a newspaper"

 

Keep right on discussing and let the mods cull anything needlessly offensive.

 

 

[seb7701]

Agreed.

 

There are obviously many facets to consider in this incident and I see no harm in doing just that - CONSIDERING aspects of the situation - particularly if they make any one stop and think about whether they could be doing something a little better.

 

Despite discussion being focussed somewhat on aircraft condition, most would be aware that incidents are usually the culmination of a number of little factors that have all come together and in some instances even just pointed to bad luck.

 

Yeah, there's been some chat about this one and a few highlighted aspects, but I am yet to read anything which has crossed any boundaries or resembled anything offensive or similar to a 'witch hunt', not has anyone taken any great notice of one measly witness.

 

Oh, and whilst I'm done with this thread, as someone brought up earlier, if we are to wait for a coroner's recommendation before doing a little self initiated quality control, we could be waiting a long time.....

 

 

[Guest Elk McPherson]

Bad luck?

 

incidents are usually the culmination of a number of little factors that have all come together and in some instances even just pointed to bad luck.

I think the majority of my time, as CFI, as a Chief Pilot, and as Safety Manager for a regional airline, is spent trying to ensure that "bad luck" does not result in twisted metal.

 

I cannot think of an accident where "Bad luck" was listed as a causal factor. More often it was the deliberate actions and decisions of the operating crew and/or the organisation that put the aircraft in such a position that "bad luck" simply completed the process.

 

 

[Guest JRMobile]

This mornings effort from the local newspaper -

 

Death of pilots sparks inquiry | Northern Rivers News | Local News in Northern Rivers | Northern Star

 

 

[hihosland]

Considering the who what why of local regional news media I don't thing that the implied criticism by putting the word press in quotes is fair.

 

The writer has tried to be informed by seeking advice from a local CFI, the Hughes Group at Ballina and the RAA president.

 

Just imagine what a slathering of RAA pilots and aircraft could have been produced by a scanning of this thread.

 

davidh

 

 

[turboplanner]

Jamie's other story (further down the page, link under NEWS) "Make crash passengers accountable",relating to a car crash, also has some merit for use in aviation.

 

 

[HEON]

I think this news report is very fair and should not be held up to ridicule.

 

Reports from people in a position to have a view, written clearly, and not "interpreted".

 

A very pleasent change in reporting of an event which cannot but be "newsworthy" in the area, and thus will be reported.

 

The minor errors in fact do not effect the story.

 

 

[facthunter]

Reasonable.

 

All things considered, I reckon THAT press report is fair comment. Like it or not, WE are going to attract attention if we go in. Aeroplanes are more sensational than cars or falling off a ladder. Once an "accident" has happened, all you can hope for is that the resultant investigation and coverage will act to make that type of occurrence less likely to happen in the future, by EDUCATING people and changing procedures when appropriate. Nev

 

 

[turboplanner]

On the subject of Nev's "Educating" there was a deafening silence after a fatal accident a couple of years ago which in my view had value for educating the rest of us to save further lives.

 

I took the next step and emailed an Official from RAAus, who was most co-operative and sympathetic, and pointed out that because the Investigation was carried out by Police and RA Aus were only assisting, the protocol was for Police to release the details of their investigation (and in fact control that information), and to this day we've never seen a result.

 

On the other hand the ATSB releases accident data very quickly for eduction reasons.

 

Perhaps our problem is because, while the ATSB is an "aviation specific" body with a hundred years of experience, and knows that the cause of a crash may relate to Human Factors and start several days before the end result, the Police are perhaps dealing the same type accident in relation to providing direct evidence of cause of death as a Brief to a Coroner, so it's hard evidence which counts, where an ATSB investigation is wider.

 

For those reasons open debate is pretty much the only education option.

 

 

[Guest Avion]

Is this the same guy that was selling Sport Air in classifieds? I spoke to him about one week ago on the phone trying to find out more info... Please tell me that was not him!?

 

Really sad...

 

 

[Guest Wigg]

Just to change the subject for a moment. It was good to hear that the 2 people in the ultralight accident at Geelong today are both ok. How uncanny the only tree in miles & the wind blew them into it.

 

 

[Guy s]

Never had much time for the media,Pilot error maybe?pushing the drifter past it capabilities?Maybe he had been warned that the plane was not rated to be push so hard?Hope I'm not out of line,and new to the forum...Cheers...

 

 

[turboplanner]

Guy, what speculation there was is pretty much covered in earlier posts. The real facts are likely to take some time to come out.