Mike Gearon

Update. Aircraft 1 We have a Sterna 3 blade prop on order. 5 weeks for delivery so we really could be flying soon. We have a few updates on the UL520t’s that failed in the USA. NTSB report should be out soon and we suspect the twin that failed was related to problems beyond the voltage drop. It didn’t make sense anyway that the battery drain voltage drop that was said to take the ECU’s out wasn’t offset by the alternator. Aircraft 2. I think this is about to get really moving. Other things are dropping back with the exception of a trip to China in a few weeks chasing wind turbine parts. Aerobatic training next week if the weather improves. Nic knew I was discouraged over stuffing up the tanks so suggested I go over and wire up the control sticks and he’d supervise. That worked and it felt good to see at least some progress. I’ve painted most of the hangar floor this weekend. See pic. It’s a 2 pack PPG epoxy. 20 litres of part A and 20 litres of part B. So, 40 litres covered some 180sqm. $1,400 dollars so not bad value. I’d tried cheaping out with one part paving paint and it’s crap. Did provide a base though so the epoxy went further. Fuel tanks have shipped from Rans. They are really responsive. $1,700 USD including air freight. Painting fuselage and wings next week if all goes well.

I’d figured you ran a flight school based on the aircraft listed and Moorabin as location. Never mind. I’ve appreciated your input.

Okay, above quote was your response to my question regarding 98% of pilots. This is where in person communication beats forum quotes by quite a wide margin. We were on different wavelengths. However, to respond to the "complaining"....... Yes, I've been complaining and I have gone to social media to further understand what I'm complaining about. You've provided a huge amount of information that has allowed me to adjust my opinion. I'm seeing why the BASE emphasis over DOWNWIND as a single call. I did suggest we meet up. I could have gone on the learning curve in a more private setting. The last experience that set this off was also in a fairly public setting but in person. Further communication in a more relaxed setting might have sorted this to some extent. It still comes down to my 5 years 6-700 hours experience versus vastly more experienced professionals. Collin Powell in his biography wrote that one should not trust professionals. He wrote this around the experience of jumping out of an aircraft and checking the instructor ahead and the guy was indignant and also then thankful because he had stuffed up. That has to be balanced. Of course one needs to trust professionals. In this case it turns out be be professionals and institutions. I've made a healthy living out of looking at how something works and seeing if there are ways to improve it. The one that still stands out as glaring is that the BASE call is after the DOWNWIND potential conflicts of inbound aircraft. I also get why BASE is used when you look at where accidents primarily occur. There still appears to me to be problems as I summarized in the 3 questions I proposed to discuss with CASA. 1. Calls made by individual schools and standardization. As you point out these could be put in the ERSA. Maybe each school has a particular situation that requires different procedures. I'm not sure how the airfield and the schools interact. Particularly an airfield like Caboolture I recently visited with multiple schools. 2. Mandated ADSB out for schools. This is a glaring problem. The government is subsidizing ADBS out because of its importance and doesn't mandate that the busiest aircraft of all at uncontrolled traffic areas have this. Lets refer back to the professionals and not trusting them. 3. That lack of a downwind call responding to inbound aircraft. I've been thinking further on this. It's a very big ask of students and instructors to be instructing and dealing with the last poor landing brief after climb out. Then be listening to inbound calls and responding with downwind based on their position. And that 10 mile call and ETA compared to their position in circuit for say a 6 minute circuit. I'm thinking back to my BFR last week and being rusty on circuits. I don't know if I'd managed to bring in the responding to inbound aircraft at correct time downwind call as well as everything else going on. I'm actually wearing their shoes now and much more forgiving. It doesn't however excuse the lack of downwind call when other aircraft have called their crosswind or downwind join. Maybe it's just a matter of tightening up instruction. I think it was my combination of a recent in person interaction combined with hearing about a crosswind join that was near collision with a downwind that hadn't called their downwind after hearing the crosswind join that prompted my "complaining" or what I'd prefer to call "investigation and discussion". That's okay and understood. It's something of the USA libertarian doctrine. It has its limits though. Without guide rails its a free for all. Too tight and its not workable. Well, I've done heaps of circuits overall in USA and here for FAA PPL and IFR and RAA here. Just not recent. I did the tower in Lincoln, Nebraska. It was excellent. I'm planning on flying into Moorabbin next week for Aero in a decathalon. Maybe I can add this to the adventure and dare I suggest again we meet up. I'll pay for instruction. Let's book an hour! As far as CASA goes I'm suitably schooled to get over writing them. Hopefully the upside here is that a few people have read the thread and had a think on their in circuit calls and maybe we've helped reduce the risk of an accident somewhere.

I think you meant disorderly from take off. More orderly on base. 2 things. 1. I had an opinion. I have more information now. I’m almost prepared to accept BASE as a preferred single call. That being said your diagram still show DOWNWIND and BASE as quite similarly stagggered. But, I accept they will be becoming more orderly on base and part of that as you’ve pointed out is time to get everyone sorted. Really, although I accept what seems to be common wisdom from more experienced pilots than me that BASE is the call have a look again at the diagram. There are so many turning points for both DOWNWIND and BASE it seems it would be prudent to call both unless there are too many in circuit. I’m still thinking that’s situational awareness and both should be called with a reduction in calls as the frequency becomes busier. 2. 98% of pilots following CASA? Haven’t we established that CASA makes no recommended in circuit call? This lack of a CASA recommendation still leaves schools around Australia with different in circuit calls. Tyabb, Tooradin and Leongatha being examples where a student is going to receive different learning at each of these. It’s a weakness that obviously needs tightening. However, I agree with the obvious. Follow what others are doing at an airfield. I never do circuits and had to do them for my recent BFR. I called base as my single call to conform to expected calls at Tyabb for in circuit aircraft. I’m thinking a letter to CASA could look like this after an introductory preamble…. 1. Establish a preferred recommended call for in circuit aircraft to overcome current confusion between schools. 2. Mandate ADSB out for school aircraft. Recommend ADSB in via sky echo or other device to assist new pilots establish situational awareness. There’s also the complexity of assisting student and new pilots with situational awareness of inbound aircraft and the pilots mandated obligation to make a radio call to reduce risk of collision. A tricky one to frame up so I’m not writing item 3.

Okay, I’m suitably humbled by your detailed response. Also, appreciative of the depth of analysis. Also, appreciating the fact that you’re not pretending to be perfect. That makes me want to catch up. Maybe we can message and discuss. Note…. My mistake in messing up downwind and base with crosswind in discussion. Of course it’s downwind to base. I’m occasionally stressed by making a fuss about the radio calls both at my local club and here. If I make a major mistake at some point I’ll be “that guy” However, it’s a big deal. I am going to write a letter to CASA once I find the right person to talk to. I thought there was going to be a CASA guy last night but that wasn’t the case. You’ve presented such a treasure trove of information I’m going to sift slowly through it then respond.

For sure on banking. I have a base turn aircraft etched into my mind because it hadn’t made a downwind call in response to my inbound call. Zero situational awareness! It was ahead and suddenly became visible both as it turned and because of the call. And…… I was looking for the aircraft! Pic below was Tyabb last night. Ermin Xavier new head of operations with the mike discussing situational awareness in the circuit. Seated is Richard Rhimes the safety officer. Both are doing a great job. The club president Stephen Braim also on safety committee. Pic doesn’t do it justice. There were probably 100 people there.

I’m hoping to chat with a CASA representative at Tyabb tonight. We have a meeting starting at 6pm with new Head of Operations Ermin and others giving talks. Also, a talk from the CASA guy. He gave a great talk I heard at an SAAA meeting. (I’ll know his name later today) I have a question for very experienced pilots such as Turbo, Facthunter and others as relates to different performance aircraft. I’ve flown maybe 15 different aircraft in my 5 flying years. Float planes, gliders etc up to the fastest being my current workhorse the RV6. I’m not familiar with pattern locations for circuit aircraft that are going to be much higher performance than a 172 except the RV6 and in circuit you climb out VY and circuit at a speed and turning points same as the school 172’s. I have info below on a twin as relates to performance. So, the question relates to where the higher or different performance aircraft (base being the 172) turn for CROSSWIND and DOWNWIND. Reason is in my heated discussion with a former HOO (at a random airfield) the main reason given for making BASE balls was that different performance aircraft will be at different spots calling DOWNWIND. I have a few problems with this. Note…. I don’t think my “heated discussion” friend would be reading this. However, in the interests of balance and fairness I did have a good discussion with that person a few days later. I have huge respect for their skills and after a good chat with them and another senior instructor I adjusted some of my flying inbound. Items such as getting to circuit height a bit earlier with speed scrubbed off. Regarding aircraft location for DOWNWIND or BASE call. 1. Why does it matter if they are further upwind and further crosswind and making a DOWNWIND call? It’s still going to alert inbound CROSSWIND, DOWNWIND and BASE join aircraft of their presence. 2. Why are they so far out of the standard circuit for the DOWNWIND then somehow at expected CROSSWIND position for the turn call. I get that the aircraft could be wide and otherwise at the expected turn position. Same then holds more or less for the downwind position. 3. Almost all the time the circuit circulating aircraft at a school airport are going to be training aircraft weekdays and a mix on the weekend. The mix will also be almost all standard performance aircraft turning at the same or similar downwind location. This renders the argument for not making the DOWNWIND call irrelevant. Why make it BASE for the rare occurrence of an aircraft turning DOWNWIND at a different spot? So, it still holds in my humble opinion that DOWNWIND should be the call at not BASE for a single call as being taught by the schools and practiced by the student and solo pilots. I have softened my opinion on CASA making this a mandated call. Reading here and listening to experienced pilots I believe CASA should make DOWNWIND a recommended call. This would formalize training throughout Australia. Right now it’s a hodge podge of different schools with different calls. The impact is felt with BASE only or BASE and FINAL when student pilots solo. They don’t bring in the downwind call for incoming aircraft. They don’t have the situational awareness. If they were taught DOWNWIND this weakness would disappear. I was doing my BFR last week and returning from French Island practice area. Made the incoming call and told the instructor I bet the circulating school aircraft doesn’t call their DOWNWIND. I’d have made money on that bet. They didn’t. Two sets of eyes helped and the instructor spotted the downwind aircraft just before I did. (I’ll call and ask if I don’t spot them) I’ve also adjusted my downwind to an early downwind at circuit height and reduced speed and no more oblique downwind entries. This is a big help for both sides of the SEE and AVOID.

I’m not anti wildlife. It’s part of the attraction of the island. Here’s a pic just now outside the living room window. Sadly this pair are down to 4 from 5 goslings. Wedgetails and hawks are always overhead. I have to watch the little dog doesn’t get taken. The Cape Barren are pretty cool. My neighbour witnessed a male rise up to intersect a hawk coming for young ones and hawk feathers went everywhere. I have to land in between these guys on the runway. They are actually pretty good at see and avoid and just sitting on the runway as I land past one pair and before the next pair and a bit of a diversion around the swan mid runway. They aren’t as much of a worry as the ibis and waterhens that are unpredictable.

I looked those up. Interesting gum. I’ve planted around 500 trees this year. Mostly species that koalas don’t like. Can’t understand your neighbours. I’m lucky on the island. Great people mostly and my next door neighbour is the best of them. Here’s a quote on the blue gum….Queensland Blue Gum (Eucalyptus tereticornis) – the best koala food tree of all, this very large tree (to 50 metres) is fast-growing and provides habitat for many wildlife species. I posted a link today to the the Rans S21 USA builders. They’ll like the koala diversion.

Aluminum a good idea! There are also threaded fitting blanks available with a thin face. The problem is any thickness on leading edge side pushes the tank back away from the fuel tank holes I’d drilled. Especially combination of the blank face and the Viton washer. I could remove a little material from the leading edge extrusion. It’s near root and I just don’t feel good about weakening a spot.

Bloody koalas! I see I shouldn’t have mentioned them. A quick brief on French island koalas. Our koalas have no STD’s. Whatever sick bastard did that to them on the mainland hasn’t come to French island. We are over run with them. Parks regularly takes 20 or so from my property to relocate on mainland. They also neuter females as a control measure. French island is 40,000 acres and half or more is parks. The koalas have plenty of trees to choose from. The specific problem I have is blue gums introduced from the mainland. They are apparently delicious if you’re a koala. My trees won’t do them any good when dead. They go back and back for the new shoots after eating the tree bare. The new shoots must be even more delicious. So, I’ve procrastinated this for years. Right now the trees are reaching the point of no return. I’ve had to act. The koalas will amble back to parks land. No animals were harmed in the making of the S21

Update. July 11th 2024 Nic Aircraft build 1. We’ve decided not to share pics on the UL installation for now. It’s been a huge stuff up from the UL USA guys. They have apparently changed their subcontractor so things may get better. Be aware communication with Ray is very weak. You’ll have to push to make things happen. Constant follow up. As my old business partner used to say “you have to organise the disorganised” UL Europe and UL Australia are good so don’t be too put off by the USA. We though the engine mount finally arriving after more than 6 months was good until then finding the trike mount was wrong size. This was after finding the lower mount holes wrong and having fixed. We went back to Brian at Latrobe airport and he quickly cut the trike part off our unused Titan mount and we were able to mount the engine. (Brian is a great guy and does excellent work) We now need a prop. The prop I purchased from Sensenich ended up being wrong. We are looking for options and may settle on Sterna 3 blade. Aircraft 2. Finally getting back into the build and surprised how rusty it feels to be riveting. Only riveted in a few fuel tank ribs and it was slow going. Will get back up to speed. I screwed up! I’m very aware I’m a day dreamy inventor and it’s hard to stick with the job at hand. For flying I’ve had to make it a daily learning experience and keep at it. Recent BFR I stacked on a few good tips at Tyabb. I’m on YouTube’s and extra learning to hopefully be sharp. For flying I have strict checklists for all stages of flight. Runup, before entering runway, climb out, cruise or CLEAROFF, descent, pre landing and on final. For building aircraft I have YouTube’s I review the night before or morning of. I carefully prepare parts and check off the parts, the illustrated pics and the text. I then look for gotcha’s. Then start and quadruple check. So, the stuff up. I thought the “gotcha” was going to be putting the upper and lower fuel sight tubes on the wrong side of the tank. Absolutely fixated on getting that right. Very pleased the 3” hole for fuel in top and all holes went perfectly. Then the fuel outlet 3/4” hole was carefully measured and drilled. Then…. Disaster. I was rinsing the tanks out with water. It is recommended to use a vacuum. I am sure water is better. There is no way water is going to going to be able to hang around in the tank. Same day in sun and the 100ml of remaining water is gone and anyway….. I noticed the water was draining out the leading edge fat side and not the trailing edge thinner rear of tank. Couldn’t believe it. I’ve spent the last two weeks messing around with polyethylene machined insert PROSEALed in place and soldering iron melted the outer area. It was okay. I busted it out as you’ll see in video. Much cheaper to buy new tanks than the tiny lingering doubt about those tank plugs. Yes, I could have put in a blank. Problem was predrilled holes for cap and the tank sits right up against the leading edge D. I would have had to cut a small extra hole in the D near the wing root. Again. Risk of weakening would be so minimal. Maybe .0001% weakening. Still. Not doing it. Tanks ordered. A $1,000 USD or 1500 Aussie dollar mistake plus shipping. My wife in Nebraska could bring them back next week except she’s bringing 3 suit cases of her stuff. What I did find out about Proseal is interesting. It is fuel proof of course. It may adhere to aluminum better but….. for plastic even roughed up,with sandpaper it is really just a gasket. A sticky gasket and don’t ever expect it to work like a glue. I’m koala proofing the trees right now. The furry little bastards are going to kill 70 mature gums. So, the aircraft can wait just a bit. The trees can’t. Still, I think in the next month we could be flying the UL engined aircraft and mine might be 3 months away. Painting is happening next week. Fuselage, control surfaces and wings. Gray below done, white curving up to partial cover tail then all the rest red. Then onto the rigging and then engine install. Maybe 3 months? Maybe finished by Christmas 2024? Pics are the polyethylene machines insert and how poorly the Proseal bonds to plastic. Second pic is the koala proofing taking me away from build for a bit.

My local club (Tyabb) has an excellent newsletter. They linked the YouTube below this week. I’m quite impressed with the CASA people discussing radio calls and admitting to their own difficult situations. At the 15 minute mark one presenter mentions part 91 and mandatory calls as opposed to recommended. Only 2 situations involve mandatory calls. Conflict with another aircraft or potential conflict requires a call. This comes back to my own potential conflicts that have happened way too many times. Flying into airfields where base call only is generally made and I’m arriving downwind or base and the circuit aircraft is not then making their downwind call. I’d not realised these aircraft are then missing a mandated call. It’s both dangerous and illegal! That’s a very good safety brief. I must admit I’d have been a bit thrown by a helicopter making a standard circuit. Confirmation bias may have had me hearing the call and still deciding they’d do a helicopter circuit. Particularly if it was really busy and a lot going on. The young guy had two good comments. One is ADSB in as addition to situational awareness. The other is writing a diagram and tail numbers. Maybe on this one… when I was training IFR in the states I’d certainly be writing a lot down. A little different because your head doesn’t come up and swivel. It’s already looking at the dash and surrounding area and stays down until decision time. Local school circuit calls……….. I was in Qld this week at Caboolture. Considering buying a hangar there if Peter the real estate agent ever calls back. They make BASE only call in the circuit. My local

Your explanations have been hugely helpful. I also agree CASA mostly has this right. For approaching an airport and entering the circuit it is very clear. The very reason for the changes CASA made are so calls at CTAF’s aren’t an endless set of calls of DOWNWIND, BASE, FINAL when important calls could be missed because way too much radio chatter is going on. However, the point I want to come back to is that CASA has left us with Australian flight schools all teaching variations on circuit calls. Some schools and therefore home airfields still persist in all the calls. This negates the intention of CASA’s changes. Those airfields and particularly when there are shared frequencies with other airports are still in just as much danger as before the changes were made. Then we have the other extreme where radio calls are reduced to the point of being clearly dangerous because none or almost none are being made. Then we get to the one I’m most alarmed at where BASE or BASE and FINAL only are taught. Students don’t seem to be able to bring in the downwind when it’s required. Incoming aircraft are better off hearing a DOWNWIND than BASE call if we are only to make the one. Turbo, you’ve avoided commenting on what is commonly taught at schools in Moorabin. You have every right to if you don’t wish to comment. As I mentioned the one I called into teaches BASE and FINAL when visiting uncontrolled airports and staying in the circuit. Maybe you could comment on what you are commonly seeing as CTAF in circuit calls and what you’d like to see change if anything? My position as I’ve made clear is that CASA could include a recommended in circuit call of downwind. That would fix the current problem in all respects.

1. I think that paragraph explains a lot of what concerns me with BASE as only call. I had a very heated meeting with a senior instructor as previously mentioned where BASE only is his strict rule. We are supposed to have situational awareness to understand where circuit aircraft are before and after they call BASE. There are so many holes in that concept it’s ridiculous. In your case you actually know he’s in front of you and lose sight of him. That happens so easily to all of us. We do see turning aircraft and that’s why it makes sense to call at that time. As you mention he’s gone deep downwind. This also puts paid to the theory that aircraft are going to be at the same spot on base even if different categories/ speeds. I can’t make sense of this theory either. If that different performance aircraft is going to be at a different spot on downwind why is it suddenly with the Cessna 172 turning base in the same spot. That doesn’t usually happen. A warbird for example is probably going to be wide upwind, cross wind, downwind and base. and… so what if aircraft are in different spots and turning downwind. The crosswind, downwind, oblique downwind, base and straight in aircraft are all going to be better off knowing early about that aircraft they want to avoid. I watched a very good interview with Charlie Munger. He accumulated billions through good decision making. He had a job as an aviation weather forecaster and asked the question “Okay, what would I have to do to kill these pilots” The answer was to fly them into icing conditions or weather they couldn’t find an airport to land at etc. So, on that basis he was a really, really good weather forecaster. Now, let’s apply that to radio calls for aircraft in the uncontrolled airport environment. What’s the best way to get aircraft to hit each other? What rules should I as chief instructor apply to my instructors and students. First would be to not make radio calls. Well, CASA has helped out with that one. Second would be to avoid if possible making a downwind call because that would alert circuit joining pilots to your position. Hopefully I’ve concluded my case for DOWNWIND as the call to make. It’s frustrating because it’s so simple and obvious. 2. Student pilots. This as I’ve mentioned before is another reason BASE only is so dangerous. We have ongoing example of solo student pilots and recently graduated pilots not making their DOWNWIND call. They are new with a lot going on and don’t have the situational awareness to hear inbound aircraft they could conflict with and add their DOWNWIND call. I and other pilots have multiple examples of this happening. One could add that decision making process to the new pilots. How to get them to potentially hit circuit joining aircraft? Teach them BASE circuit calls.

Exactly!

Well, you can discuss all you like. CASA have decided what’s the correct procedure. Less calls. I had an interesting interplay today between ADSB and radio situational awareness. Northerly wind and I heard the departing aircraft make a downwind departure call from 36. That would you’d think have them departing generally south. More or less 180 and climbing out. I decided I’d still like to give them a bit of space and changed from a planned base entry to 36 to a downwind entry. I then hear Melbourne center telling the departing aircraft we are tracking at each other. I’m still heading generally north west. Immediately I turned directly north and checked my ADSB in. Sure enough the other aircraft had been directly ahead tracking south east. On the way inbound with windy conditions I was aware there were no GA flights. Or at least none on ADSB in or radio. When the departing aircraft called their downwind departure I was totally focused on radio situational awareness and giving space to the departing aircraft. Never entered my head they could be calling one thing and doing something else. Conclusion. Spend the .5 seconds to glance at ADSB in even if they aircraft is clearly by radio call going in a certain direction. We never stop learning!

Well, I’m also a partial convert to the highly experienced instructor I talked with yesterday. Less calls. Making all 3 calls can jam up the radio. Especially when it’s busy. I believe the original CASA change was brought about by one or more incidents where less calls would have reduced the risk of collision. Another thing that particular instructor brought up yesterday was aircraft naming and it really doesn’t need to be in every call. It’s for situational awareness of performance. We know a 172, warrior etc will be around 100kn downwind. We hope an RV has slowed to a reasonable circuit speed from their 160-180kn descending approach. We will notice a warbird calling because it’s likely to be fast and wide. We got that on their first call. Based on that instructors influence I’ve started to reduce calls and didn’t call exiting runway last week for the first time in my 5 flying years. (No other aircraft in vicinity or on radio at the time) That felt terribly wrong. I then reduced it to “TUP clear 22” so I’d at least maintain the habit. Another couple of topics from yesterday. 1. High speed aircraft entering the circuit. We aren’t taught how to do this as new pilots or in my experience in transition training. We should be. I’ve gone from 110 to 140 to 180kn capable circuit joiners. Max CASA speed of 150kn to join the circuit (1000ft AGL)is still fast with circulating 172’s. See and avoid is much better for everyone if the joining aircraft is slowed to some 100-120kn. My point here is we aren’t taught that and even though it appears to be commonsense I don’t think it is. It’s not like a car where you’re doing 150kph and notice the other cars are at 100kph and maybe you have it wrong. There’s no reference between your aircraft and others near circuit area beyond your ASI. 2. ADSB in and out. Again, related to school aircraft and circuit aircraft. A surprising number of schools don’t have ADSB in or out. There are various arguements here related to staring at the screen or unnecessary traffic alerts. My belief is that schools should be mandated to have ADSB out and I suggest they have a sky echo as minimum for ADSB in. This then teaches students about a valuable adjunct to situational awareness. Teach them not to stare at the screen. Perhaps in circuit they can glance at ADSB for a second or two in their 6 minute circuit to add to their situational awareness of incoming aircraft. I believe in my own case it would have had solo student pilots more likely to announce their downwind if they’d both heard my incoming call and glanced at their smart phones ADSB in. They are also obviously taught aircraft may not have ADSB out. All part of building their picture of situational awareness. All part of helping them toward their future solo flights and being set free. I think my first cross country flight would have benefited from ADSB in and the additional navigational backup aid of a smart phone. There is a local event in a few weeks with a CASA representative present. I hope to have a discussion with them on this topic and see if there are any changes in the wind or if there is any available method to influence change.

No, I agree it’s easily missed. I’ve added carb heat on religiously regardless of temp and humidity as part of my descent checklist. Can’t see any reason not to. It’s 50-100rpm reduction for a missed approach and part of a missed approach check list is cram, climb and clean so it gets done anyway.

I’ve had some interesting conversations last few days. Called into Moorabin in search of Mr Turbo. I visited the wrong place. However, at that place I learned that the instruction they teach is when they visit CTAf circuits they are calling base and final. I was surprised to find that CASA don’t want downwind calls. This of course isn’t the case. It just shows how much confusion is out there. Not only amongst the students being taught but amongst instructors as well. I spent time today with a senior instructor elsewhere who is a staunch defender of minimal radio calls and base only in circuits. I had two main questions. 1. Why are you so adamant that minimal calls is best? I did get a good answer to this. Radio calls are fatiguing. I guess we all recall the early days and even a simple radio call was just too much on top of all the other things going on to aviate and navigate as a new student pilot. I think it’s gone too far though when minimal calls ends up being no calls at all if other aircraft aren’t around. To me this is like reducing checklists because we know it all. Making at least a single call in circuit and on exiting the runway in use at a CTAF does a couple of things. First, it helps keep us regimented to make the call and not gradually drop the calls when they should be used. Especially for new pilots. Second it allows aircraft that are still beyond the 10nm range to ascertain both the runway in use and the fact that there is at least one aircraft circulating at that airport. I’ve been surprised at a local airport a number of times making my inbound and join call only to find a school plane in the circuit. That, I think is the result or consequence of not making calls because no one is around and not then bringing them back in. As mentioned, like checklists they need to be kept up. 2. Why are so against making the downwind call if only one call is to be made in circuits? Again, as with the previous question I did get a good answer. Downwind various aircraft will be making that call at different positions. Base is a more certain position. Pilots should have situational awareness and a base call should allow you to work out where aircraft are in the circuit. I mentioned a recent experience where I was coming into an airport and heard a single aircraft calling their base stop and go. On descent and entry to circuit I was scanning for the aircraft and didn’t see one. I then decided they’d made the stop and go a stop and maintained a good lookout regardless. I was very surprised on downwind and closer than I’d have liked to find that aircraft turning base and announcing another stop and go. I wish they’d called their downwind. They certainly knew I was inbound. White aircraft with white clouds aren’t exactly easy to see. It was this occurrence that prompted my opening the thread on topic. While I understand downwind can be at different positions for different aircraft a number of them are going to school circuit 172’s. A portion will be pilots staying current/ proficient. We do know where they will be. It will in my opinion be a rarity to have a downwind call from somewhere surprising. To conclude. CASA have with the best of intentions recommended minimal radio calls and no specific in circuit mandatory call. The result can’t be what they expected where Australian flight schools are teaching different call methods and confusing both student pilots and experienced pilots encountering them. Calling base as a single circuit call is really asking for trouble. I’m surprised there aren’t more reported incidents or accidents. It seems so basic that downwind calls alert other joining aircraft. Base calls are worse than useless. They haven’t alerted the crosswind, downwind or oblique downwind joining aircraft. The base join aircraft is in even more trouble. They could end up very close together. The straight in pilot hearing a downwind call has the whole downwind leg of the circuit aircraft to ascertain if they should break off their straight in approach. A base call is cutting it a bit fine.

I just about brought the farm about 30minutes back. Bloody bin chicken at about 700ft as I’m turning final for French island farm runway. Definitely got the heart racing. Way too quick to react. No clue they were there until last fraction of a second. I’ve had some interesting flying moments. Never anything as close as this. IMG_2636.mov

Okay, I think I need to call in and we do this the old fashioned way in a face to face 🙂 That’s not what I’m asking. I’m driving your way today and will call. Daughters 34th birthday so I’m flying to Tyabb and driving your direction. Instructors going out to non controlled airspace outside Moorabin such as Tooradin, Tyabb or Leongatha to conduct circuit with their students…… Will they be calling downwind only, base only, all 3 or another combination. Or… do they all have different styles and the student won’t know what they get between different instructors? I can’t imagine this is the case. It also gets to the crux of what I’m seeing as a problem for students and the rest of the flying community. The CASA system of make whatever call you feel like has ended up with very different instruction styles at different schools. Potentially dangerous for everyone involved. So, if you’re a student in an area with say 3 different radio call procedures at the 3 different schools. All systems have their merit. I’m very anti base only call because I experience student pilots and graduates of some schools making a very regimented base only call even when hearing pilots make inbound calls to join crosswind, downwind or base. The current CASA system may work when you look at the big picture and want it somewhat self regulating with a certain number of mandatory calls. It completely falls apart when you look at it from the perspective of non standard radio procedures across Australia. This is my point. I won’t bother gather flight school information by phoning schools. It really isn’t my job. You’d think a CASA employee or decision maker would be gathering this vital data. Maybe they have? I’ll list right here what I believe the percentages will be. FLIGHT SCHOOLS ACROSS AUSTRALIA RADIO INSTRUCTION FOR STUDENTS IN CIRCUITS 30% all 3 calls. Downwind, base and final. 30% Downwind and base. 20% Base only. 20% instructors all have their own style and students experience changing procedures between instructors. okay… my work is done. I’ll get back to farming, building the Rans S21, starting a new wind turbine business (call me for a 3kw wind turbine $10,000 inc 6m folding tower)2 Taiwan businesses and family stuff.

May I ask what calls instructors from Morrabin teach in circuits at uncontrolled airfields?

Leongatha is downwind and base calls. i guess I’ll just gather them and list. Feel free to add please or let me know if have them wrong. This is instructed calls in the circuit. Ideally it’s to gather a picture of how this operates throughout Australia.

Okay, that’s good information. However, the comparison with a factory isn’t the right one. The saw operator is only going to cut their own hand off. We are more comparable with road rules. There are multiple fast moving objects involved. I’m still looking for information. Should have made the title…. What does your flying school teach for in circuit calls? Can we start with Moorabin. Aircraft are flying from there to CTAF airports all the time. What call or calls are the Moorabin flight schools teaching? Obviously the inbound, joinining and touch and go departure calls. If that aircraft decided to stay in the circuit which call/ calls are taught? Downwind, base and final? Downwind and base? Downwind only Base only? Other?