Rapture

Thanks Burnie. You have hit the nail on the head with that statement. Zonsen have indicated to me that they consider the Australian market to be an important one. But as you say, consumers in Australia like to see OEM support for their products in Australia and there are certainly ways that such support can be demonstrated.

Burnie, it is not possible to give you what you want because the engine is new enough and not prolific enough to be able to furnish you with the data that you want. You are essentially seeking third party validation of quality and reliability. That data is not yet available and that has been stated already several times on this thread so continuing to ask for it is not going to change the fact that the information that you seek is not yet available. Please ask again in 2 years and we should have the independent validation that you seek. We are aware that sales will likely be slow until such validation is available. I think we probably all agree that an initiative by the manufacturer to incentivize some customers to take the engines, build time on them quickly and get the third party validation of quality, safety, reliability and customer support so that potential customers need not fear that element of the buy decision.

Zonsen have exceptional engine test facilities at their manufacturing and assembly plant in Chongqing. The majority of their engines have gone through the accelerated testing process required to obtain ASTM approval. So they’ve already essentially done your test.

Okay readers, please take a deep breath and stop bashing Zonsen simply because they are a Chinese company and PLEASE can we stay on topic about Zonsen specifically and the Zonsen products. Their factory is amazing! Immaculately clean, extremely ordered, fully automated (robots collect parts off the shelves and deliver to the assembly stations), technicians are uniformed and white coated and skilled, the quality assurance section is extremely well equipped with the technicians being skilled at what they do. On that topic, our first engine was delayed after the Zonsen QA process identified an issue with parts of our engine which were subsequently remanufactured. The QA system worked and the Zonsen desire to only send out engines that meet their stringent quality requirements was met. Their manuals were pleasantly fairly good, with some English language errors evident but feedback that I have given has been immediately addressed and they’ve sent me a new updated manual within days of me providing my feedback. With more feedback, their manuals will improve, but their first cut at them has been pretty good. We all get that hours need to be put on the engines and third party validation of the product is required in order to build a reputation. I’d love to drop 10 engines into the market here and have them fly their backsides off so that we can then point to a demonstrated history of reliability and associated product support. I reckon that is what we need, but as the distributor, I cannot wear that cost or risk. That said, there have been many sales into Europe so we should start getting more data on the success of the engines there, along with reports of first hand experience by unrelated parties. So please, back on topic and let’s stop with the generic China product bashing. Don’t tar Zonsen with that brush until there is evidence to support the tarring… or there is evidence to support a good reputation.

Believe me, I hear you. The aero division of Zonsen have been very good to deal with, but I think they are still coming to grips with Western mentality and mindset. Building a reputation needs to come from the manufacturer and there are clear metrics around what elements of a business and their product will positively enhance a reputation, particularly in the aviation sector. A demonstrated history of a reliable, safe and well supported product is critical, not just on a sample of one, but on a sample of many and over a sustained period. Distributors have the ability to support the initiatives of the manufacturers to raise the level of credibility and trust in a product, but ultimately, responsibility rests with the manufacturer to enhance their own profile.

We raised this issue with Zonsen, particularly as it relates to trying to break into a market with a new and unproven engine, combined with a new manufacturer who has yet to establish a good reputation for product quality and product support. Unfortunately, the cost is what it is. What the manufacturer needs to do is to build the reputation and the brand so that the products and product support are at least equal to or preferably exceed that of Rotax, then the $4000 price differential will be a point of difference in their favour.

The ship with our 110hp CA510 has arrived in Adelaide and we’ve been told to expect to collect our engine late this week or early next week. I’ll post pics when I can but they might be delayed due to my need to travel for a week. We (Rapture) will have a small booth at AusFly with the engine one display. Please swing past and say G’day and check it out. If you want to buy it, you can take it home from the show with you 😜

We are up against the perennial problem of importing goods that are pegged to the USD whereby the fluctuating exchange rate affects engine pricing and shipping costs. At current exchange rates, the 100hp CA500 (Rotax 912ULS equivalent) will retail at around A$31,000 including GST which comparing apples to apples is around $4,000 cheaper than the Rotax, while the 110hp CA510 has a retail of around $35,000 which is around the same price as the 100hp 912ULS, but offers another 10hp. If comparing the 80hp CA300 (Rotax 912UL equivalent) to the Jab2200, the CA300 will have price tag of around $27,500 so around $4,500 more than the Jab, but still cheaper than the Rotax. Rapture Aviation will be at AusFly and we should have our newly imported 110hp CA510 on display (it’s scheduled to arrive in Adelaide on 26 Feb). If anyone wants to take it home with them after the show, we will offer a show deal on it.

Hi Blue, Do you know what model Rotax he has in the J230? It’d probably be a bit lethargic with a 912, so I’m guessing the 914 or 915. If anyone knows the owner of the J230 with Rotax, could you possibly pm me their name or contact details?

Thanks Skippy. I’ll give them a call.

Hi JabWW, Someone on the Zenith forums has done an accurate weigh of a Rotax 912ULS with accessories and fluids and achieved the following figures. The 100hp Zonsen CA500 will be essentially identical. Components Weight, lb Engine mount 12.2 Exhaust, muffler 6.2 Exhaust, pipes 3.8 Radiator 2.4 Heater hose, throttle cable, etc. 4.8 Mounting hardware, oil cooler and tank, water cooling components, air filter, miscellaneous parts 19 Total parts 48.4 Oil Engine 0.8 gal 5.44 Oil tank 0.8 gal 5.44 Oil radiator, hoses 0.3 quarts (assumption) 0.51 Total oil 11.39 Coolant Cylinder heads, water pump, expansion tanks, coolant hose. 1.5 liters / 0.4 gallons as per Rotax installation manual. 3.3 Total coolant 3.3 Engine, dry 131.6 Total fwf, minus cowling 194.69 The prop that we will trial for the J160 conversion is the E-prop with its associated spinner which is likely to save a little weight over the Jabiru prop. The J160c owners that have done the Rotax conversion have needed a new cowl, but the weight would likely be similar to the original Jab cowl. They have all done the necessary W&B calculations that have been resolved with ballast. How much ballast I don’t know at the moment. We will likely use the same team that has already done a Rotax conversion and have the knowledge of what will be involved. An EFIS is not required but an Engine Indication System such as the GRT EIS would be useful to monitor engine parameters.

Hi folks, Does anyone have, or know of someone who has an airworthy J160c that is not flying, possibly due to engine issues or simply languishing in a hangar somewhere, not being used? We are looking into installing a 100/110hp Zonsen engine into a J160c under the provisions of MARAP, and then potentially offering conversions to J160c owners to the more powerful engines. Under the provisions of MARAP, the J160c would still be eligible to undertake training school activities. The folks with the 100hp Rotax 912 conversions have all been happy with that conversion from both the performance and reliability perspectives. The Zonsen engine (Rotax lookalike) is relatively new but there are several in Europe that have over 500 hours and have performed reliably. Anyway, if you have or know of a J160c languishing away that we could potentially breathe new life into with a new engine and an EFIS display, please pm me. Another option is installing the 145hp (137hp max continuous) turbocharged Zonsen into a J230 or J430. At 10,000’ with the IAS limit for rough air (117kias), that would represent a cruise speed in rough air of 135ktas. The still air cruise speed would be higher. That level of performance would make the Jab230/430 a more serious cross country performer. Takeoff and climb would also be better than with the 120hp Jab3300. Anyway, if any of this discussion piques your interest, reach out to me and let’s discuss. Thanks. Dave

There has been discussion on this forum previously about repowering the Jabiru airframe with Rotax engines. The general consensus is that the Jabiru is an excellent airframe. However, some owners or potential owners have reservations about Jabiru engines but support the reliability of Rotax engines. Indeed, several members of the forum have already repowered their J160c or J230/J430 with the Rotax 912/914 engines. The reports on this forum from the owners of these Rotax powered Jabirus indicate that the conversions have been a success and the owners have been happy with their decisions to repower their airframes. Performance of the aircraft appears to be similar or better than the when fitted with the Jabiru engine. As many of you will be aware, the Zonsen Aero engine has striking similarities to the equivalent Rotax engine, but has not yet had enough market penetration to build up any sort of reputation for either reliability or support. While over 400 predominantly 100hp Zonsen engines have been sold into Europe, it is still a relatively new product in the US and Australia. Zonsen offers products equivalent to the Rotax range, so 80/100/115/145hp, both carbureted and fuel injected/turbocharged. Zonsen also has their own 109hp engine that fits between the Rotax 912 and 914 models. Enquiries already made to Rapture Aviation about the Zonsen range of engines indicates that there is interest in putting Zonsen engines into Jabiru airframes as the Zonsen engine will offer a savings over the equivalent Rotax product, albeit without the proven track record of Rotax. This thread is really a bit of a poll to determine what the preferred powerplant would be for the respective Jabiru models, if an owner were to consider a Zonsen engine to replace their Jabiru engine. The aircraft models that I seek opinions on are: J160c J170 J230 J430 and the engine options would be: 80hp carbureted 100hp carbureted or fuel injected (FI) 109hp carbureted or FI 115hp turbocharged 145hp carbureted and turbocharged 145hp FI and turbocharged For those that own a Jabiru or are considering owning one, I’d appreciate your opinion on which powerplant would be the best suited or most attractive option for your airframe and if possible, why that would be your engine of choice. One of the benefits that I see in a Zonsen retrofit for the J230/J430 aircraft is that when fitted with the 145hp turbocharged engine, there is not only 25hp more for takeoff, there is also 137hp cruise power available at 10,000’, 17hp more that the Jab3300 can make at sea level and full power. At the rough air limiting indicated airspeed of 112 knots at 10,000’, that equates to a 130ktas cruise for the aircraft. In still air, a 140ktas cruise speed at 10,000’ could potentially be comfortably achieved. With the FI engine, there is no carburetor heat needed and with the liquid cooling, there are no shock cooling concerns to think about. This sort of performance for a J230/J430 would help make it a better cross country aircraft. Handing over to the viewers for your feedback and opinions.

We have our first engine about to be shipped from the factory and delivery is anticipated late December/early January. If anyone is in the market for a new Rotax 912UL or 912ULS and fancies additional hp, this 109hp Zonsen CA510 engine will be available for sale. The final price will be advised once it has been delivered to our facility in Adelaide, but you could expect a saving over the lower powered 912ULS. If you might be interested in this engine, please pm me or make an enquiry through Rapture's website enquiry form. If you have a neat aircraft that would be a good showcase for the engine, we will consider sweetening the deal if you display your aircraft in the Rapture display at Ausfly 2025 (14/15 March at Wentworth) and possibly also at Avalon 2025 (25-30 March). If a customer doesn't take it, it will be going straight into one of our company aircraft that we can demonstrate. Cheers, Dave

REQUEST TO THREAD PARTICIPANTS! Could we please keep this thread on topic? The quality of Chinese products in general, whether good or bad bear no relationship to the quality of Zonsen engines. Please could we have no further mention about Chinese products in general. This thread is specifically about the Zonsen Aero engines. If you have first hand knowledge about these engines then please contribute. If you have a direct statement from someone that has first hand knowledge or experience with these engines then please contribute. Please, no politics and no bashing of other thread participants. If someone is out of order, I will ask the Admins to address it, if they haven’t already picked it up. I have counted over 30 posts in this thread that have no relevance to Zonsen engines. As I have said before, we want to make this thread one where folks can go to find useful information. Off topic chats are not useful and are an unwanted distraction. Let’s try and build this thread as a receptacle for direct knowledge about the Zonsen Aero engines. Even as the distributor, I don’t care whether the feedback is good or bad about the engines, a lot can be learned and addressed from folks problems with a product or product support that can go towards addressing the issues to make a better product, with better product support. SO PLEASE, CAN WE STOP WITH THE OFF TOPIC DISCUSSIONS AND IRRELEVANT POSTS? Thanks, Dave