FlyingVizsla

Yenn, ELAAA might be saying RAA is the same as they are, but they are different animals. ELAAA is a Pty Ltd is a private company with shareholders and it has customers, RAA Ltd is a Not for Profit - limited liability Company with Members. The RAA constitution sets out the members' rights, and they are more than just voting in some Board members and copping whatever comes. The members have power over the Board and don't need to wait 4 years to vote them out. A Private Company is not required to tell you about their constitution or voting, finances or how they are running the business. They can choose what services to offer and leave the more difficult and expensive ones to someone else. It is there to make a Profit for their Shareholders.

ELAAA Pty Ltd cannot be granted the remains of RAA's assets. The RAA constitution is clear that it can only go to a like-minded Not for Profit, decided by the members:- "Winding up 63 Surplus assets not to be distributed to Members If the Company is wound up, any surplus assets must not be distributed to a Member or a former Member of the Company, unless that Member or former Member is a not-for-profit entity described in Clause 64.1. 64 Distribution of surplus assets 64.1 Subject to the Corporations Act and any other applicable Act, and any court order, any surplus assets that remain after the Company is wound up must be distributed to one or more not-for-profit entities: (a) with purpose(s) similar to, or inclusive of, the purpose(s) in Clause 6, and (b) which has governing documents which prohibit the entity from being carried on for the profit or gain of individual members, and which prohibit the distribution of any surplus assets to its Members to at least the same extent as the Company. 64.2 The decision as to the entity or entities to be given the surplus assets must be made by a special resolution of Members at or before the time of winding up. If the Members do not make this decision, the Company may apply to the Supreme Court to make this decision." ELAAA might pick up some business if RAA collapses but they won't be picking up their assets. Another Not for Profit could establish itself quickly before hand, pick up the ashes, and intellectual property (manuals etc) and get their approvals together in the future. However, I don't see RAA collapsing any time soon.

This is a valid issue to consider for pilots. If RAA decided to not offer a service to a segment of the recreation industry, maybe because it was complicated to do so, even though their 'charter' or agreements allowed them to offer that service, and they were a monopoly or duopoly; is there any remedy? With another player about to leap in the sand pit this may not be such an issue. If one, or both, refused to register or licence; is there anything that can be done? There are many examples - hypothetically - say ELAAA decide not to accept 95-10 registrations because that market segment is too small and difficult, but they are 25% of what RAA charges - could they be 'forced' to accept applications; or is price / cost not sufficient grounds to prove a denial of supply? If RAA declines to take a particular member, who cannot legally fly without being a member, is there any way around it, particularly if RAA was the only organisation that could offer that membership? I know there will be members who get asked to leave for disciplinary reasons connected with their unsafe flying, but here I am thinking of other issues - could be anything ... accusing the Board of cooking the books, a personality clash with the Grand Poohbah; all unconnected with flying and aircraft maintenance, but ending with the member expelled.

Hi Barrie, From the menu choose FORUMS - go to JUST LANDED - top right is POST NEW THREAD. Click on that and start writing. Sue

That is not true. Members can, and do, take action - think back to the Extraordinary Meeting in Canberra. They can put up resolutions to be voted on at meetings, and history shows the Board have not always got their way. They could have lost the "Constitution" vote and had to continue as an Incorporated body with the old, flawed, constitution, but it was the Members who had the say. The Board only had their own personal votes - 13 against 10,000. Members can put pressure on their Representatives to resign if they are not putting their interests first - that has happened. They must disclose their finances to the membership each year, if Directors are to be paid, the membership has to vote on it. People like me give the books a good going over for members to discuss and challenge if they want. What you state is more true of the new organisation (with the exception of voting). "You cannot not be involved with voting on policy, politics, documents, finances etc. They will only report to you not involve you in operational matters or strategic planning that affects every member." Insert "customer" for member. You don't expect, and can't have, a say in the running of a private company (for example) BP, you just rock up to the bowser and pay for the fuel. If BP decided not to supply AVGAS you can't force an extraordinary meeting or move a motion or lobby your elected BP board member. You have to live with it. In recreational aviation we have become used to dealing with Clubs (not for profit) - RAA, Aero Clubs, etc. A Private Company is a new experience.

Hey Flying Dog - we didn't get a notification because he did a Cut & Paste, rather than a "Quote" So far I have not been able to comment on anything other than what I know from their Facebook page (no web page and no promised announcement). By definition a Pty Ltd has less than 50 shareholders (owners) - they may only have 5 - and their business (constitution, voting, minutes, finance etc) is private. As a customer they don't need to consult you about Tech Manuals or who is being paid what (unless they chose to). KP and at least one other appeared to me to have an agenda with their comments which got me looking further - I don't go on Facebook - but this got me looking there. I was a little concerned about some of the language there about RAA as "the bad boy", and I know some personalities have axes to grind, so I sincerely hope we are not going to war. For people who think the new organisation is going to magically turn back the clock to an easier time of "do what ever you think is OK" or "just use common sense" - will find it's like ditching one sister for the other - you still have the same Mother-in-Law (CASA). I can bet there will be a robust Tech /Ops / Safety Manual and the private company can decide not to have difficult aircraft and people as customers. They can save money by not insuring customers or printing a magazine. They should be able to get on with the job because the Managing Directors are there by mutual agreement (they liked each other enough to form a company) whereas the members of RAA have voted in a disparate lot with a wide range of views and agendas. We will have to wait for the new kid on the block to announce what they are about. Sue

Hi Paul, Welcome to the forum! There's plenty to see & chat about. Check out the items in the menu - lots of people miss the fantastic amount of gear in there and only focus on the forums. If you look, there are tutorials, aviation apps etc that the younger ones might enjoy - decoding your weather, trip planning - learning and getting involved in flying. Sue

I just asked the Better Half - he can't remember anything before the current CAGIT, however I think there was an earlier CAGIT that ran out of room for names. It was retired in favour of this long tall one. I can't remember a "trophy" before CAGIT. I will have a look through the old magazines when I get home.

Come And Get It Trophy - RAAus has it, each pilot that Comes and Gets It gets to have his/her name engraved on it. There are rules about distances (so you can't just hand it around) and Dexter Burkhill keeps track of it. See the latest location in Oct 2016 Sport Pilot. It lingered long up north of NT.

From their facebook page (bad spelling in theirs):- the following information is for public disemination now. ELAAA Pty Ltd Rick PARKS CEO, Myles BRIETKREUTZ Managing Director, Keith PAGE Managing Director and Kevin PATTERSON Managing Director.

From their facebook page: the following information is for public disemination now. ELAAA Pty Ltd Rick PARKS CEO, Myles BRIETKREUTZ Managing Director, Keith PAGE Managing Director and Kevin PATTERSON Managing Director. More info promised to come today.... ELAAA | Facebook ELAAA is a Pty Ltd company - a private company with less than 50 shareholders (owners). The people who join will be "clients" not "members" as we currently think of ourselves with RAA. The decisions and voting will be restricted to those few owners. Might suit people like my darling who wishes "they would just get on with it so I can fly" and does not want to be involved with voting. politics, commenting on policy, documents, finances etc.

Michael Monck discusses some of these issues in Sport Pilot Oct 2016 p.5 Chairman's Report - The Organisation It Should Be. Download and read.

Hi Bd, Welcome aboard! Most here are Australian so the discussions are mainly about getting Australian Recreational Certificate, Recreational Pilot or Private Pilot Licence. There are some from the USA and some Australians who have gained US qualifications on here too. So if you have any questions, ask away. As you come from Savannah - have a look at the plane of the same name - it is very popular on this forum and being built around the world. Welcome & good luck. Sue

I downloaded October 2016 from here https://www.raa.asn.au/storage/62-october-2016-w-1.pdf I got there from here Sport Pilot Magazine - RAAus Have given up on downloading from issu because the download option kept disappearing even when I was logged in.

Welcome Henry, Good to have you contributing! Sorry about the weather - it has been so good in Qld that we forget its too damp or windy elsewhere. How is the CTSW to fly? Sue

Welcome Mike, Never too late! I know lots of pilots still happily flying at 70+ and 80+ and even one at 90. We have the advantage of uncomplicated airspace at a quiet airstrip where we fly, which means more time flying and less wondering where everyone is and our slot in the circuit. Lots of old fliers come out for smoko and a chat, so it's also a social occasion. Sue

Lots of free stuff right here on RecFly - try Resources for various helpful apps and Tutorials (John Brandon's) - scroll down to the Contents and click on Navigation, Radio etc.

My maths was off there ... $450,000pa. There are 8,500 pilot members (RAA only quote pilot numbers as membership statistics now) and over 1,000 Non-Flying members plus magazine only subscribers (libraries, aviation bodies, interested people). Which I figure takes it up around 10,000 entitled to a magazine. 2,100 now subscribe to the printed magazine - about $189,000 in subscriptions. From the pleading for subscribers, that doesn't appear to be covering costs. I took the meaning of the "update for you on the Technical Manual" to be the reminder that the old V.3 is still in force, but transitioning to V.4 soon. So get your things done before the deadline. Mr FV has been reading V.4 and has remarked that there isn't much in there for 19 registered. Sue

Rod Birrell promised (if elected) to return a hard copy of the magazine to all members at an additional cost of $45pa. So that's the cost of producing the magazine for everyone - about $45,000 per year. RAA was losing money on the magazine on the newsstands - more unsold than profit from sales, but it was thought it would be offset by the generation of new members and wider circulation for advertisers. In the end it was scrapped. Maybe the break-even point for printing makes the losses worthwhile.

Revgazza, I spent many years in Western Qld and knew a number of the flying padre types; especially ex-Longreach - Flying Nun, Salvos, the Baptist guy and a few of the independents. I was around Birdsville up to Boulia, Charleville, Winton to Barcaldine early1990 onwards. Slowly moving closer to the coast. Atherton would be an easier climate than the last few years out West. Enjoy your time here! Show us the Cougar. Sue

Same here - clashes with something pre-arranged. Maybe next year.

So sad to hear of his passing. I treasured his posts over years and will miss him. RIP - fly free.

On the ELAAA facebook page Keith has announced "The big day is getting closer!" and posted a photo of the ASIC registration of E&LAAA Pty Ltd effective 13 September 2016, with "Look at this, action is happening." ELAAA still describes itself as "ELAAA (Experimental Light Aircraft Aviators Australia) is a light sport aviation association yet to be approved to administer light aircraft in OZ." I am assuming ELAAA is in negotiations to become a self administering sport aviation organisation under CASA? Keith may be able to cryptically update us on progress and who the directors are and what they hope to administer, and when.

AvSafety seminars information The seminar will cover a variety of topics with the main theme for this series being ‘Starved and exhausted - Understanding fuel management’ and ‘Handling partial power loss in single engine aircraft’. By using case studies from ATSB investigations, our Aviation Safety Advisors will help seminar attendees extract crucial lessons to assist in making better flying decisions. As well as the main themes, this round of seminars will also provide an update on the Regulatory Reform process, a reminder of the correct procedures to use at Non Controlled Aerodromes, and a discussion on the pros and cons of using personal electronic devices in the aviation environment. The seminars are an opportunity for industry to interact with CASA, discuss local issues and ask questions of the regulator. Aero clubs and other aviation organisations are welcome to run Aviation Safety Seminars with ASAs presenting, however CASA will not be financially supporting the events beyond reasonable operating costs. Registration for AvSafety seminars will be through EventBrite from August 2016. (Register here: AvSafety seminars schedule | Civil Aviation Safety Authority ) Attendance is free. TBA - Venue to Be Announced - check the website for updates. Help make the Skies safe for all, attend a CASA AvSafety seminar in 2016. Canberra ACT Oct 12, 2016 Abode Woden Broken Hill NSW Oct 26, 2016 Broken Hill Aero Club Coffs Harbour NSW Nov 22, 2016 TBA Jindabyne NSW Sep 20, 2016 Jindabyne Bowls Club Mittagong NSW Nov 17, 2016 TBA Moree NSW Nov 21, 2016 TBA Port Macquarie NSW Nov 24, 2016 TBA Warnervale NSW Nov 8, 2016 TBA Wollongong NSW Oct 25, 2016 Best Western City Sands Darwin NT Sep 21, 2016 Mercure Darwin Airport Resort Ayr QLD Oct 30, 2016 Ayr Aerodrome Cairns QLD Oct 13, 2016 Aviation Australia Charleville QLD Nov 24, 2016 TBA Gatton QLD Oct 24, 2016 Gatton RSL Goondiwindi QLD Nov 10, 2016 TBA Mt Isa QLD Sep 29, 2016 Ibis Styles Mount Isa Veron Roma QLD Nov 23, 2016 TBA St. George QLD Nov 22, 2016 TBA Toowoomba QLD Oct 25, 2016 City Golf Club Warwick QLD Nov 9, 2016 TBA Gawler SA Nov 3, 2016 TBA Loxton SA Oct 5, 2016 Loxton Aero Club Mt Gambier SA Nov 16, 2016 TBA Murray Bridge Downs SA Nov 23, 2016 TBA Naracoorte SA Nov 15, 2016 TBA Parafield SA Sep 21, 2016 Mawson Lakes Point Cook SA Nov 16, 2016 TBA Port Lincoln SA Oct 14, 2016 Port Lincoln Flying Club Bairnsdale VIC Nov 24, 2016 TBA Essendon VIC Sep 21, 2016 Mantra Tullamarine Hotel Latrobe VIC Nov 22, 2016 TBA Lethbridge VIC Nov 22, 2016 TBA Swan Hill VIC Oct 27, 2016 Mid Murray Flying Club Tyabb VIC Oct 5, 2016 Peninsula Aero Club Warrnambool VIC Nov 24, 2016 TBA Esperance WA Oct 28, 2016 Esperance Aero Club Geraldton WA Oct 19, 2016 Kelmac Aviation Kalgoorlie WA Nov 25, 2016 TBA Perth WA Nov 2, 2016 TBA