Ignition

I feel like one of the contributors to unintended stalls is literally the term 'stall speed' - people thinking they are safe just because they are flying above what they believe to be the 'stall speed' despite the fact you can stall a Jabiru/Cessna (take your pick) at 40kts and at 100kts. But like... you can't stall if you don't exceed the critical angle of attack.

Tl;dr "Am I so out of touch? Hmm.. No it is the children who are wrong" - Seymour Skinner, 1994. Like... wow.

I wasn't going to bother putting in my thoughts on this topic, but as a young person, I feel like I can speak for myself and my friends who have stopped flying to offer some actual perspective rather than this echo chamber which couldn't be more wrong. I'll quote the 3 responses that got my attention, and then respond below them. These responses are perfect examples and part of the reason why young people like myself have a waning or very little interest in flying now. The younger guys really do not have the cash to fly and it is honestly so frustrating to be constantly on the receiving end of comments like that from people who have no idea because their experiences were vastly different at our age. Sure some of us are earning what sounds like a lot of money, but the cost of living, student debt (did they have $20-100k+ uni debts when you guys went to uni?) and rising costs of aviation, it's actually not affordable, and for the few of us where it is, it's not justifiable for the cost-time expense - one of my friends literally decided to stop flying last week, his reasoning: "$200+ for one hour of flying, and half a day is gone along, plus the cash could've paid some bills. It's not worth it." - a lot of people I know feel that way too. For some of us it is the choice of, do we want to own a car or house, or do we want to fly/do other expensive hobbies that cost as much as home loan repayments because our grandparents generation changed the game so we couldn't play it. Even if it were genuinely affordable for most of us, the interest would still not be there, I can explain why below. Yes - Clubs are populated by old guys, and that is a huge part of the problem, but not for the reasons you think... with the absolute respect, please don't take offence to what I'm about to say, instead see it as an opportunity to understand younger people and maybe put yourselves in our shoes - because as someone who used to hang around different aero clubs every weekend, I don't find them enjoyable or welcoming places. Old guys get stuck in echo chambers, repeating the same unpleasant, inappropriate and incorrect things and agreeing with one another, reinforcing that unpleasantness. The amount of times I've heard quite frankly homophobic slurs, racism, sexist, ageist, condescending, aggressive, stereotypical comments from old guys at aero clubs (some of which have been echoed in this thread - they are so degrading and exhausting), yeah I think it is pretty clear to me why I and so many others don't feel comfortable being around those environments - and no its not isolated, I genuinely can't think of a single place where I haven't felt uncomfortable to some extent, solely based on the attitudes and behaviours of the old guys at them. If the demographics at aero clubs are gonna change, the existing attitudes need to change and be more welcoming first. Us younger ones no longer have the skills, and want everything now? Excuse me. And everyone here wonders why young people don't want to hang around people who think so poorly of us? You weren't born with those skills either, you had to learn them, and you had to be in environments that made you want to learn them. <- this part is important. I never pursued a career in the airlines, I was passionate about it as a kid, it was all I ever dreamt of and wanted to do - the reason I didn't, OLD GUYS and their attitudes, and the environment that created. Being told by old guys: "there's no money in flying", "the industry is declining", "get a job in the NT on a station and work your way up because you won't get an airline job", I don't know if people realise it but doom and gloom don't exactly make for great encouragement, and it made the idea of the industry look fake, glossy on the outside, but terrible on the inside, not as cool or exciting as I thought it would be. Me Me Me behaviour. Wow, see, I would've thought that flying a plane for ones own enjoyment was still... 'me me me behaviour', who are you flying for, why are you flying? It's for yourself right? I tried my best to enjoy aero clubs, and aviation websites, but the amount of doom and gloom, political division, the constant us vs them, old vs young, that unwelcoming environment... that's the issue... old guys are meant to be the inspiration, the mentors, but overwhelmingly, they're the opposite, I think I can count the ones I look up to & respect on one hand, and I've been involved in aviation for 14 years. But apparently it's just that us young ones no longer have the skills. I started building an RV many years ago, I still am building it, but I was told continuously "you'll never finish it", "it's a waste of money", "we'll believe it's able to fly when we see it", "you're doing it wrong", "it won't fly". But apparently it's just us young ones... Us young guys can only bring our excitement, we enter the industry thinking it's going to be great, only to be shut down by the very people who's position it is to show us around - what do you guys expect from us? That we are born with the skills to fly? That we will be happy to sit around a bunch of old guys who continuously kick us down? That our young enthusiasm is the key to keeping the industry alive? I hate to be the bearer if bad news, but that's not the key. It's on the old guys to show us an exciting industry that we want to be part of, to encourage us, to create an environment that is welcoming. I used to love aviation...

One thing to remember in the 'sparsely populated' thing is that half our population are connected by the 3rd and 18th busiest air routes in the world. Our 3 main cities are much closer than they appear. All Australians 16+ are now eligible to get vaccinated, some 12-16 year olds are eligible now too Of the 16+ population, 62.1% (as of today) already have had at least 1 dose Australia's supplies will have 10.5 million doses available this month so the supply issues are finally sorted (would've been nice if they were sorted when we were at the front of the queue but better late than never.) Most pharmacies & GP's should have supplies on hand right now, you might still need to ask around, but the vials are there if you want it And, we're literally weeks away from 16+ being at 80% fully vaccinated, around 10-11 weeks at the current pace

Yep, the location is basically always visible in the app and the car has a built in sim card so its pretty much always connected, but also the 'when Teslas are stolen' made me laugh, if owners have 'pin to drive' activated the car becomes near impossible for someone to steal, plus sentry mode sends alerts via the app and records a video of anyone/thing that comes close enough to the car to trigger it. Safe to say they are the most secure cars in existence. Also for the charging cable, if you are charging at a Tesla Supercharger or using a Tesla home wall charger, the cable locks onto the car when the doors are locked and can only be unplugged when the car doors are unlocked, which goes a long way to preventing random people from pulling the plug while you're in the cafe/shops. Heres an example of that:

That sort of thing is usually avoidable with better planning, also not sure why she wasn't out shopping too, you don't need to sit with the car while it charges unlike when you have to stand while filling up at a fuel station. Literally the Tesla will send a message to their phone when it's reached the desired charge. For an example, a trip from Adelaide to Melbourne (8 hours), only requires two charging stops: The first, a 7 minute top up at Keith SA where you'll probably wait longer for the coffee order to be made while you stretch your legs with the 'stop revive & survive' or whatever the saying is. The second, a 28 minute charge at Horsham VIC, which again, your lunch or dinner will probably take longer to be ordered, cooked & eaten than it will take for the car to charge. Heres the plan for that specific trip (provided the link works): https://abetterrouteplanner.com/?plan_uuid=354a9cd5-a34a-4dba-b92f-24834ec116a5 Like with flying a plane, prior planning makes a huge difference, if you plan a road trip correctly, you will spend a comparable or less time than a fuel powered car waiting around for the charge, because instead of standing holding a fuel nozzle and then grabbing food/coffee, you just skip straight to the good bit (food/coffee) and the car does the rest at the same time.

I haven't been on this forum in long time but this thread got me... There is a lot of misinformation in this thread. Mostly outdated comments that just aren't true today and I'd like to comment on those. Tubz, that may have been true a long time ago, but it is not true today. Tesla (the company) was founded in 2003, 18 years ago. The Tesla Model 3 was first mentioned in 2006, however the company was focused on the Model S and X until 2012, it wasn't until 2015 that their primary focus was on the design and development of the Model 3. 2 years later in 2017, the Model 3 was in production. Basically, when the company finally decided to get serious about the Model 3 - design, test, tool & production took around 5 years (2012-2017). Not only this, for the production infrastructure, it took just 10 months start to finish for Tesla's Shanghai production factory to be built from application permit to completed construction, with the first cars rolling off the production line 2 months later. So, 14 years is not impossible, it's actually slow, given that you can start a company and turn it into the worlds most valuable automaker in less than 18 years. Townsville is 386km from Mackay which is around 4 hours so I'm guessing this is where that specialist trip scenario is for. If you leave Mackay with a full battery in any Tesla, or even a Hyundai Kona, you can easily do the trip, charge at the destination while you're at your appointment and return to Mackay, easily. But there also isn't nothing in between, the longest distance between dedicated charging stations on that route is 126km from Mackay to Proserpine, and there are several other locations along the way with dedicated chargers already - so even EVs with a much lower range will handle the trip. Wynyard to Zeehan is 152km... most EVs available today in Australia can handle that easily. As for 160km/h? That's illegal everywhere in Australia last I checked. But, lets say its a real scenario, Mount Gambier to Hay is 629km, and there are already about 10 places you can charge at on or near that shortest/most direct route. Very doable. Most people leave home with a full charge and don't need to charge again until later in the week with Australia's average usage, I even know some people who charge their cars at the shops while they do their weekly groceries. Charging station usage is a completely different concept to fuel stations, you can't look at it in the same way because it's very different, for an EV a dedicated charging station is more of a backup than a necessity. Australia also has pretty good coverage for EV charging stations, see the map: https://www.plugshare.com They're already here... I took an electric bus in the outer suburbs of Sydney two weeks ago. A large number of the public buses in Canberra are electric. There is also an Australian company that does electric light trucks - https://www.sea-electric.com/ It's a bit premature, but here's an example of how EVs are taxed for road use: https://www.vicroads.vic.gov.au/registration/registration-fees/zlev-road-user-charge Supermarkets, destination charging etc. As I mentioned earlier in this, I've got some friends who charge their cars when they do their weekly grocery shop, which covers their daily usage for the rest of the week. Correct, the average Australian drives just 36.4km a day - https://www.budgetdirect.com.au/car-insurance/research/average-kilometers-driven.html Every single EV in Australia can handle the average Aussies commute easily already. Even a 2012 $9000 Mitsubishi iMiev with a range of around 100km on a full charge would only need to be charged 2 or 3 times a week if people aren't topping up the battery as they sleep each night. It has started - https://www.pipistrel-aircraft.com/aircraft/electric-flight/alpha-electro/ You're in luck, there is a company in Byron Bay offering exactly that - https://www.instagram.com/ev_classic/

Before the speculation runs too rampant as it has elsewhere... (Please avoid judgement also, the pilot and passenger were airlifted to Canberra Hospital, the last thing they need right now is negative thoughts). The facts are: The flight was from Bankstown to Cambridge (Hobart) cruising at FL160. Approx 20nm past Moruya the engine failed, they were losing 1000fpm. The aircraft was pressurised, it was a P210N model. The aircraft had a turboprop, not piston motor. From this height they were able to make it back to Moruya, but had about 2 minutes at most near the airport to assess the situation/airfield and make their decision (which in the heat of the moment would go very quickly, and keep in mind a normal circuit does take around 6 minutes). They chose to attempt an approach onto 04, however were too high and too close so quickly switched to a circuit onto 18, unfortunately they weren't able to make the final turn and instead of attempting a low level steep turn they chose to put it down straight ahead into the overshoot scrub. The wind throughout the day was gusting to around 40kts and it was hot (so people were at the beach). Moruya can be a tricky airfield, it does have its characteristics that can catch people off guard, an example being unexpected sink near the river, and when it's windy it can be a challenge due to the terrain & mechanical turbulence. Given the amount of practice forced landings I've done at Moruya, I think the pilot has done a good job under pressure and whatever decisions they thought were right has ultimately saved their lives (and that's all that matters, aircraft can be replaced), although they probably will be spending Christmas in Canberra Hospital. Hoping they have a speedy recovery.

For the most part yes, but there are some slight differences (some due to the Magnetic North Pole/True North Pole for example.) Not really something to worry about in Aus. For Australia to have the desired E over C, it's basically just the re-categorisation of a section of current Class C airspace that is needed (ie. the top tier of the upside down wedding cake) around cities that already exists; this airspace already has radar coverage. For airspace specifically, we aren't hugely dissimilar, it's just that one layer of the cake that makes the difference. Population Density plays a big part, take Canada for example which has far more Class G airspace. Outback Australia wouldn't suddenly be forced to switch from G to E down low unless there became a need for it with 600,000 pilots flying around in localised areas as there are in the USA, so realistically from what I can tell, not much would change with regards to that - class G would still be class G until it's busy enough to become anything else. Basically the most notable change would be removing the road blocks in the J curve on the East Coast, so that pilots aren't forced over dangerous terrain and are able to plan an efficient flight. Two examples: Currently - - Imagine you're in flight from Kempsey to Grafton, Grafton is your home base, there is forecast cloud on the mountains but the coast is clear, if you hold a CTA Endorsement you proceed to Coffs and request clearance but get told to remain OCTA for the moment, you just want to get home, you consider skirting around the edge of the airspace, you know there is at least 500ft of altitude you can use between you and the ground, but there is still the risk of cloud just to the west. There are a few options, don't fly in the first place (but its clear on the coast), you can return to Kempsey (waste of fuel, time, money), you can wait for clearance (waste of fuel, time, money), you can skirt around the edge (potentially fatal). If you don't hold a CTA Endorsement, that reduces your options significantly. With E over C - - Imagine you're in flight from Kempsey to Grafton, Grafton is your home base, there is forecast cloud on the mountains but the coast is clear, you don't even hold a CTA Endorsement (or you do, but in this case it makes no difference), you stick to your plan and fly directly over Coffs at say 9500ft in clear skies, no clearance necessary and no impact on IFR traffic (ATC are dealing with them the exact same way they do now). You're observing the cloud down to the left of you that isn't a hazard, you land safely at Grafton, no fuel, time or money wasted. No get-there-itis. Just a safe flight that went to plan. Or Currently - - Imagine you're in flight from Moruya to Wagga, there is 15 knots of wind but otherwise it's a nice day, if you hold a CTA Endorsement you proceed wanting a clearance to continue direct, a distance of 138nm, but are denied and you now have four options, wait for clearance, return to Moruya, go around Canberra airspace to the South (dangerous terrain, 15kts you'll probably see experience some mountain waves, and the distance is now 185nm), go around Canberra airspace to the North (safer terrain, distance is now 190nm) 1.5x your planned flight distance, 1.5x the cost. 1.5x the fatigue. With E over C - - Imagine you're in flight from Moruya to Wagga, you proceed on your plan at say 8500ft, in class E over Canberra. You can see traffic in the distance on descent and climbing out past you in line with the runway, but they aren't a concern because they aren't directly above the airport. You land safely at Wagga. Or the real world example that Dick tends to talk about, VH-MDX. Ironically, the E over C would solve that by adding the option of flying over at, in the examples above, 8500+ as opposed to skirting around the airspace under the steps.

Statistically the number one scenario of an unintentional stall is below circuit height in the circuit, turning base-final, followed closely by initial climb out. There are numerous studies that the FAA in particular have done specifically on that which are relevant anywhere in the world, so I won't beat that old drum that was already smashed out in this thread a year ago. What is this 'Stall Speed' business Nev? Angle of Attack...

Ah, I see where the misunderstanding between Ada and I is, I am talking angles, Ada is talking speed (ie. The thing I wanted to stop talking about). In a glider, the max climb rate is naturally going to be the Max L/D which is a fixed AoA, this is also the case for any airfoil. In a powered aircraft it will be the Max L/D + thrust. As a side note, don't forget the Lift Formula, make CL the subject and you'll be halfway there.

This is just gonna go around in circles because neither of us are talking about the same thing. When the engine fails, your best rate of climb is going to be L/D Max, because you won't be climbing and you will be wanting to obtain max lift/min drag. This will also be your max glide. This is at a fixed AoA. Just because you have an engine on the front does not mean that the airfoil will operate any differently, it is still operating under the same laws of physics as a fixed wing aircraft, the exact same as a glider. This thread is specifically about stalling however so I would much rather keep it specifically on that as your other thread is already discussing Vx/Vy.

Your rate of climb can be in the negatives (aka descending), it is not limited to a positive rate of climb only, and any attempts to raise or lower the AoA from the L/D Max will result in an even lower climb rate.

Maximum Lift, Minimum Drag.

Indicated maybe not, but true airspeed will change. That part was simply a quote from the website that was linked with the calculator. Aircraft performance, I assume they are referring to engine/power settings/no engine and how the aircraft is being operated (diving, climbing, etc). Exactly, shove the stick too far forward and you'll be in an inverted stall requiring back pressure. The safest bet is to centralise the control column. If a glider doesn't have a best rate or angle, how do they obtain maximum performance out of the wing? Think about it for a bit...