Garfly

Yes, thanks DJP. Here it is as .pdf: advisory-circular-91-02-guidelines-for-aeroplanes-with-mtow-not-exceeding-5700-kg-suitable-places-to-take-off-and-land_0.pdf

No ... but it can't hurt to do your own reality check on your aircraft's book figures - assuming you even have P-charts for your plane. "I’ve personally had the miserable experience of beginning a takeoff roll in a type-certificated light plane and not being sure that I’d have enough of a climb rate to stay safe in the initial climb. I was pretty sure, but I was flying a very old airplane with a very thin POH, and I didn’t have any way to be certain. This is an experience that I never want to repeat ... " Jared Yates, Kitplanes. Predicting Performance WWW.KITPLANES.COM John T. Lowry's Bootstrap approach makes it easy to create performance charts for your pilot's operating handbook. By Jared Yates.

In the video, Jason Miller urges against trusting your life to book figures at all - even your own POH's ones. He says add at least 20% to the book figure (after all other factors in "Notes" have been accounted for). Plus, as a back up, he pushes the 70% of rotation speed by 50% of runway length rule. It's too bad DJP never got around to building that app. Unfortunately, that CASA link doesn't seem to be working any more.

Good point. And some weather decisions are a lot more straightforward than others. Anyway, lest we're tempted to think it's mostly risk-taker types who get into strife; a cautionary tale from ATSB: VFR into IMC involving a Piper PA-28, VH-FPS, near Warrnambool, Victoria, on 25 February 2021 ao-2021-009-final-report.pdf Safety summary On 25 February 2021, a Piper Aircraft PA-28, registered VH-FPS, operated by Moorabbin Aviation Services, departed Warrnambool Airport for Moorabbin Airport, Victoria. The flight crew were conducting a training flight under the visual flight rules (VFR). There was an instructor, student pilot and a passenger on board. During the cruise, the weather deteriorated and the aircraft was returned to Warrnambool. As the aircraft approached Warrnambool, the visibility reduced and the instructor initiated a climb into cloud. They contacted air traffic control and received navigation assistance to an area free from cloud. The flight then proceeded to Moorabbin Airport where the aircraft landed safely. The CASAbriefing video below actually analyses that incident but then goes on to offer useful tips on proper interpretation of NAIPS GAFs, TAFs etc. The meteorologist urges pilots to talk to the relevant BOM aviation person whenever in doubt about a forecast (the phone number for the person handling your flight region is always at bottom left on the GAF).

You could PM Kyle Communications on this site for more info.

And you should brush up on your libel law.

So you can't put up. Thought not. Pathetic.

Put up or shut up.

But then some, even among the well-trained cohorts of yore have revealed failings of an HF nature. Those'd be beyond any job that could be done on them.

That's funny, I too was trying to cut off "incredibly dangerous talk" at the pass.

But even in the unlikely event of this Commenter not being what or who he claims, that "hands off the yoke" method has been around for a long time and is worth re-visiting in any case. We could try addressing a Comment with a Comment; this one was posted on a Pilot Workshops article (below) a few years back (And yes, this could be an imposter too, but we have to use our heads a bit. And, in any case, accept that, as in any field, expert opinions differ. flyboy1423g 7 years ago Jim, because your brain doesn’t work like an autopilot. A properly trimmed airplane doesn’t go out of control when it enters clouds, but your head will. The hands in lap/rudder only technique goes back about 50 years or more and it works. You should try it sometime, the day your AP and GPS systems go flooey it could save your life. Also remember that the DG is as important as the attitude indicator in instrument flying since the airplane won’t turn when wings are level. Use the rudder to initiate the turn or to stop a turn and you don’t upset the wings natural stability unlike the ailerons which do. How can you tell which way its banked/turning from the DG only? Bigger numbers to the right, smaller numbers to the left always works and easy to remember. PRACTICE this technique it is a life saver. VFR into IMC - PilotWorkshops PILOTWORKSHOP.COM Bob: “As with any emergency, remember the big three; maintain aircraft control, analyze the situation, and take proper action. Obviously maintaining aircraft control is the most important element. I... The issue has been tossed around on here, too, for a long time:

It may be "the crux" of the matter but it's also an obvious assumption behind this entire conversation. It's the only reason Mr. Cessna would ever have suggested so radical a solution as "hands off the yoke".

Of course, your bullet list regarding the problem is perfectly well accepted by everyone. All those points are the background assumptions for the main issue of the thread, which is something like: Given inadvertent IMC penetration by the untrained, is the old "hands-off the yoke" advice still - and in all cases - considered good by those who know. (Those who don't know might do well to ask questions and listen up. After all, it's all about us.) Anyway, Skippy, as to your own proposed method which takes "hands-off" even further (feet-off too), well, I for one, don't buy it. But what would I know? In any case, regarding what you reckon to be "downright stupid" I urge you to read again kgwilson's account (above) of his own unintended encounter with IMC as a VFR pilot. One of my take-aways from it is that once you're in it you ARE an "IFR pilot" and you'd best start acting like one (though if panic's taken over, all bets are off). Another take-away is that panic is not called for and not inevitable. Another is that under-the-hood refresher work is good insurance against accidental penetration of cloud.

But this is about suddenly, inadvertently entering IMC, barely trained, unprepared. I'd say NOT "trying to use instruments" (calmly, methodically as in kgwilson's tale) would certainly be asking for a problem.

Yeah, and I'm guessing that was the thinking behind the Cessna POH (as per OP). So, short of panic, a better idea than hands-off the yoke seems to be what you did. And yes, some refresher hood-time sounds good - especially if it happens to includes some supervised real IMC.

Here is the follow-up film: touring around: Oz

Fair enough, and I'm all for thread drift but this was the OP's question in respect of that YT Comment about the Cessna method. "recent Dan Gryder Utube video; A post / comment by an instructor; interesting technique when in IMC by mistake / error or terror - no hands on yoke - just use your rudder for turns ........... for anyone to comment" It's just that your rhetorical question suggests that the rest of us might have totally missed the point that not all aircraft are equal.

Of course not. But we ARE talking about Cessnas and Cessna POHs in this thread.

Well they must be taught the same in the US, given it's the whole point of the YT Comment in the OP: 've always taught ... the technique described by all Cessna operating handbooks for an emergency entry into the clouds ... maintain your heading (and wings level) with your feet/rudders only Okay, a more fullsome exposition of the thread title. What superseded rules are you talking about? In any case, you ought to know we must still stay 1000' feet from cloud vertically and 1500m. horizontally between 3,000' and 10,000' when above 1000' AGL. But yes, you're right. In Australia, inadvertent entry into IMC by VFR pilots remains illegal. And the liability is strict.

Thanks, A-51 for taking the effort to engage with the ideas. I can well imagine the scene of confusion and disorientation you describe. I totally believe it without needing to experience it. But it leaves me to guess that that classic 'hands-off' strategy was invented after they figured that no more chaos would likely ensue compared to "hands-on" methods; and that, with a bit of luck, you'd have a better shot at a happy outcome. Anyway, the idea still seems to persist, for example, as the takeaway from the "Mayday, Mayday, Mayday!!! I'm gonna crash!!!" story. [ https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Fnb4qCfp0mo ] Of course, the secondary effect of rudder being roll was the whole point of the "Cessna" method as outlined in the OP YT Comment. The hope seems to have been that a panicked VFR pilot is more likely to be able to stay wings level using rudder alone - inputs just sufficient to prevent turning in the first place. They must have concluded that 'hands-off the yoke' was the only way to prevent the panic pull that'd end in a stall/spin. Game over even quicker, even surer. Still no Mars Bars. But anyway, my own sense of the safest thing to do for VFR pilots caught out is, pretty much as you say "wings level, straight ahead, cruise climb attitude, etc". Which is why I've never felt comfortable with the often suggested immediate 180 turnback. Indeed "Things go more wrong when turns are brought into the imc scenario."

But which idea, exactly, are you saying is BS? Nobody on here - or even the benighted YT Commenter - suggests anything to contradict "If you have no turn coordinator altimeter vsi or appropriate training there's a fantastic chance nobody in the aircraft will be arriving home" Almost everyone in aviation holds to that idea; a truism. That being the case, no one really needs to be marched off to an X-Plane sim to "see what happens" (even absent panic and spatial disorientation). The instructor quoted in the YouTube comment (in the OP) said this: 've always taught all of my students how to maintain control of the aircraft in IMC by performing the technique described by all Cessna operating handbooks for an emergency entry into the clouds. First, lower your power setting and re-trim. Next, and most important, keep your right hand on the throttle and LET GO OF THE YOKE and put your left hand in you lap. Until you're VMC again and can see, maintain your heading (and wings level) with your feet/rudders only. Any turns required are done with your feet only. If you require a climb or descent, it can be done by adding / reducing power only. You'll never lose control of the airplane like this. Get on the radio and declare an emergency and get help to find VFR weather. So I for one (zero actual IMC/IFR) would be very open to hearing from those who know, about the problems with this long taught technique (for Cessna trainers, at least). But, to be useful, it would have to offer an alternate method working from the same scenario. That is: sudden inadvertent IMC; pilot with little/no experience in cloud; typical (Cessna) six-pack still working (IMC only just entered) and predictable Human Factors (like the urge to pull to save oneself) likely taking hold. Under those conditions what might a non-BS idea look like; a better long-shot on a sticky wicket than the one Cessna proposed for years. BTW, was it not ATC's "hands-off" advice to the pilot in the famous "Mayday! Mayday! Mayday! I'm gonna crash!!!" affair, that was credited with saving his life. FWIW there's an interesting review of that incident (and VFR>>IMC generally) in this video by airline pilot "74 Gear" https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Fnb4qCfp0mo But for those with no time to waste gazing at the GoogTube (Red!!! I'm lookin' at you! ; -) you'll get the gist in less than a minute here: 20:23 >> 21:00

Yes, I do ... with the same amount of discernment that I read comments on internet forums. To dismiss all is as foolish as to accept all.