Oscar

Both the Jab 2200J and the Rotax 912A were certificated under JAR 22H, so any A/D on them would be a CASA responsibility. Later Jab 2200 and I think all of the 3300 engines are certified under ASTM, as are some of the R0tax 912s. Some more recent versions of the 912 are certificated under FAR 23. So it's not a simple issue and Aleck's responses were, at the least, a gloss over the situation. And I believe your summary is 100% correct: CASA has painted itself into a corner. It beggars belief that Jonathan Aleck was so stupid as to not see this outcome coming down the tunnel as a flame-thrower - unless this outcome was something he desired to happen. Both the timing AND the shambolic assembly of 'data' simply reeks of what Phelan called 'an unseemly haste' (a title far more dignified than the circumstances deserve) to have the Instrument IN PLACE and EFFECTIVE before Skidmore took over the DAS position. If this goes to a Senate Inquiry - and it most certainly should - this is going to reverberate for quite some time.

Absolutely! Sorry I didn't take your post in fully, but yes, it's an extremely important article. And I can vouch for the accuracy of Phelan's description under 'Palace Revolution', I was getting almost real-time reports from extremely reliable sources somewhat in the 'thick of the action' ( as they say in military dispatches) as the whole thing was unfolding. Phelan's description in no way overstates things, in fact, he was being fairly restrained.

For those who may have a cynical view of my comments regarding senior management conspiring against the CEO, I suggest you read the article: http://proaviation.com.au/2013/04/06/to-hell-with-the-rules/ , in particular, the section headed 'Palace Revolution'.

The history of certain people in high positions within CASA actively conspiring against their chief ( CEO or DAS, depending on the time) is well documented. It reached a dramatic climax in Bruce Byron's time, with several of the top offenders being removed from their position in a 'get out NOW, collect your personal things and leave the building' manner - approved by the Minister at the time. However, there is no reason to believe that culture has been eradicated.

Nope, they did not take the Runcorn incident out, and they included duplicate incidents (in adjoining rows!) amongst other really amateur, verging on the incredible, inclusions that anybody with a skerrick of aviation knowledge would seriously rule out as reliable indicators of genuine engine stoppage.

Everybody: bloody marvelous responses! FWIW, a considerable amount of 'backroom' work has been done in the last 6 or so months - particularly since the 'data' spreadsheet saw the light of day - and O'Sullivan has obviously been well briefed on at least quite a bit of that. He WILL receive more information, that I guarantee, and all of the comments he has received in support of his turning over of the rock in Senate Estimates will reinforce his intention to pursue the matter, I will bet London to a Brick. This has all the potential to be a watershed event in the CASA 'overlordship' of Recreational Aviation. CASA (or its forebears) has for ever exercised a 'droit de signeur' relationship to Recreational and Sport aviation: effectively reserving the right to come in and f#$k it whenever it pleased CASA - and exercising that right whenever it pleased CASA (or its forebears). If you think I am joking: go read the HORSCOTS 1978 report on Sports Aviation Safety. Specifically, para. 174, relating to the weight limitations on 95.10 aircraft: The Department of Aviation believes that the 115 kg weight limit is adequate to build safe ultralight aircraft and that the weight limit should be kept low to reduce damage on impact with property. Do I need to amplify further? This is NOT 'advancing aviation safety', it is 'covering the Departmental ar$e if something goes wrong'. And, since 1978 at least -Recreational and Sport aviation in all its forms has NOT caused injury - let alone death - to 'innocent bystanders'. The operational limitations applicable to all Recreational and Sports aviation operation has been, I contend, a significant part of that. The 'populous area' mantra regurgitated by the CASA respondents in the Senate Estimates hearing is absolutely negated by the statistics for the last 47 years of Recreational and Sports Aviation operations. Hell, I seem to remember that even a mobility scooter has been responsible for the death of 'an innocent bystander'. You have more likelihood of being killed by a shark attack: not fanciful, FACT.

Jabiru have looked at the 'CASA' interpretation of the FAA criteria and they believe that CASA has made a fundamental, and quite serious, error in the way in which they have applied the FAA methodology. I am not a statistician so am not able to comment on that, but IF Jabiru is correct ( and they'd be pretty silly if they have not checked very carefully their conclusion), then Jabiru aircraft have a considerably better overall fatality rate figure than GA. And since RA in Australia has ZERO fatalities or injuries to 'innocent bystanders', it is a nonsense for CASA to suggest that ANY RA aircraft has a demonstrated 'heightened level of risk' for those on the ground. To use 'potential' as a justification, introduces a huge area for subjective judgement. ANY aircraft that is in flight has 'potential' to crash. 'Potential' as a reason, allows CASA to pick anything it likes, to justify its actions.

I got the distinct impression that O'Sullivan had a very damn good idea of the 'quality' of the data, and that he was basically firing warning shots over CASA's head that they will be called to the Headmaster's office and required to explain in detail. He seemed to indicate, by a gesture, that he had quite a portfolio of material that they were going to be required to answer, and letting them know that if those answers were not acceptable, they would find those shots were merely sighting-in for the heavy artillery bombardment. If you've every watched Heffernan in action, his couple of somewhat laconic comments were the equivalent of him pinning a frog down to the laboratory bench prior to commencing dissection - and he usually dissects with a large hammer (remember the comment about Gillard being 'deliberately barren'? )

Sorry if that appeared as combative, Bex: I did assume that you were reporting the automated response and simply wanted to advise others that this is still a 'result'. MP's staff filter everything incoming to the MP and it's important that they see public interest in an issue, because that's what gets it pushed up on the MP's agenda. Once the MP's office gets a heads-up that this is something the MP can 'exploit', it gets a whole different status: the office starts to look at what's coming in, rather than just push it aside to the 'send thank you letter' pile, and from that action will start to happen. Some of us out here have been working up material analysing and explaining the many aspects of what has been wrong with this CASA action, but for that to be effective it has needed a 'champion' who can use it to screw CASA to the wall. It looks as if we may just have our 'champion' now, and every bit of encouragement that he can be given to run with the ball will help to ensure that the backgrounding information will be looked at and used if it is cogent to the issue. If we can - as a community - utilise this opportunity to demonstrate to CASA that Recreational and Sport aviation is NOT just something that CASA can kick into the gutter because it might be annoying, then we have a far better chance of being treated with respect and fairness in the future. This is not JUST about Jabiru (and incidentally, CAMit, as you will appreciate) but the advancement of the entire sector of aviation. If we - as a community - just sit on our hands here, it opens up a pathway for CASA to regulate us out of existence, or at the very least to reduce us to virtually 'outlaw' status in aviation terms. We need to fight, and every bit of support we can give to any 'champion' for us, is important - even if one gets no more than that automated response as you reported, it is a brick in the wall for us.

It doesn't matter that you get an automated response: the Senator's staff see the numbers coming in and that will tickle them to tell him it's a hot button issue.

Everybody - and seriously - email O'Sullivan, congratulate hiom for opening this au to proper inspection. THIS IS IMPORTANT! - not just for Jabiru but to forestall CASA expanding this kind of BS throughout the Rec Av scenario. https://www.aph.gov.au/Senators_and_Members/Contact_Senator_or_Member?MPID=247871

It's not Skidmore they need to get. It's bloody Farqharson, CASA Legal, and Mick Poole. Skidmore had the baby left in a basket on his doorstep - but it looks to me as if he hasn't yet gotten abreast of CASA internal politics. He should go have a long, long talk to Bruce Byron.

It's Senator O'Sullivan.... I happen to know that Sentaor Heffernan was being expensively briefed re CASA's activities during the Forsyth Review, and while I do not personally like him, he is considerably worse than a Pit-Bull with a toothache when he gets started. If you watch his body language in particular, he was sizing up CASA for a damn good kicking by the Senate (again). I was on my Departmental 'team' for a number of Senate Estimates hearings in the Bronwyn Bishop days (and don't get me started on how thick she is), and absolutely NO Department or agency takes Senate Estimates hearings lightly. The Senate can take your balls and poke them out your nostrils if they so decide.

AND THAT"S WHEN THE FIGHT STARTED: Senate Estimates Committee, two days ago. Essential you watch the whole thing; low-key at this hearing but the clear and present threat of a full Senate Inquiry if CASA don't come up with much better than they have done so far.

Media reports suggest Warren Truss will retire in the next few days. Most likely replacement: Barnaby Joyce. Once people have stopped laughing uncontrollably / crept cautiously out from under the rock to which they retreated, it is in OUR interests to take this change seriously and see if we can advance the cause of Recreational /Sport aviation under a Joyce Ministership. Transport - encompassing all aviation matters - is a traditional sinecure for the Nationals in the Coalition,and has been claimed over many years by the Leader of the Nationals: Sharpe, Anderson, Vaile, Truss.. Of all of these, John Sharpe was the only one with understanding of and a vision for Aviation, and CASA would be in all probability a considerably different and more useful animal if he had remained as Minister for a decent number of years. Anderson, you will recall, did grass-roots Aviation the worst possible service by handing back to local Councils regional airports just before he left office... Turss has, in reality, been almost comatose regarding aviation in both of his periods of tenure of office and Vaile was simply a dickhead who took Australia down the path of the first FTA with the USA, which has seriously disadvantaged us on just about every level of its influence, the 'reciprocal rights' for aviation matters amongst them. Before we get into any BS about 'political leanings', let me say upfront that Albanese's time as Minister for Transport was ALSO completely useless in terms of advancing pretty much anything relevant to Aviation. We could be excused for being just a wee bit paranoid that we are regarded by the Minister with the responsibility for Aviation as the bastard child - no matter what the political affiliation of the Minister of the time. While I share the belief of many that Barnaby Joyce needs to take his socks off to count beyond 12, A new, 'virgin' Minister is an opportunity that we should not overlook, to deliver a strong message that Recreational and Sport Aviation is something that has the potential (and in some cases, e.g Bundaberg!) actually is a serious input to the economy, attractiveness, 'connectedness', and service industry development of many regional communities. We have - just possibly - a chance to position ourselves within a new Minister for Transport's horizon. We have intelligent, coherent, professional, savvy people in our ranks. We have quite a good story to tell - IF WE TELL IT WELL. I have a considerable amount of confidence in the current RAA Board to be able to carry our interests forward - but I believe that everybody should get behind any efforts they make and should also become politically pro-active. And by 'pro', I mean: pushing the message that Recreational and Sport Aviation is beneficial to the community, with examples. Over to you guys for thoughts.

FFS - you do not know the role of CAR35/Part 21M engineers and you expect ANYBODY to take ANYTHING you say seriously? It's not even worth drawing your attention to significant matters of which you are, quite obviously, totally ignorant.

Talk to the (ex) CAR35 / Part 21M engineers who keep Australia flying. The BS that the intellectual midgets now in CASA have managed to substitute for proficiency, is the primary cause of an exodus of the finest aero-engineers we have had over several decades, from the game. READ the Forsyth Review report.

You are a funny man, Turbs.

Turbs, you have NO functional understanding of: 1) the way in which CASA routinely operates 2) the CASA internal politics that led to this Instrument 3) the risk assessment algorithm used by the FAA - which CASA claims to have followed but has demonstrably failed to even understand properly 4) the communications between CASA and the FOI inquisitor which demonstrate the degree to which CASA failed to properly assess the data it demanded from RAA before promulgating the Instrument. HOWEVER, all of the above is incidental to the fact that your convoluted, obfuscatory, illogical and frequently self-refuting 'conclusions' drawing on absolutely BS 'statistics' is, in the grand scheme of things, completely and utterly irrelevant. I am fairly sure that you could easily construct an argument that Jabiru was the second shooter on the grassy knoll, given your quite evident alternate universe appreciation of the facts. You WILL be remembered - which I believe is the result you crave - for the statement: 'there is an inbuilt Natural Justice system within CASA' That will go down in history as up there with the Catholic Church's denunciation of Galileo for being a monumental, ideologically-bound, utter and complete mega-load of bovine fertiliser. The wonderful thing about human intelligence is, we can distinguish between truth and transparent fiction. The puzzling thing, is why we ( and I include myself in the collective 'we'), bother to read - let alone respond respectfully - to your inanities.

Yep, that's basically correct. Sufficiently correct that one should NOT jump into one's composite aircraft ( whether a c/f composite OR a basic e-glass and commercial resin composite structure, such as a Jabiru) that had been sitting out on the hard in a blinding sun and a 40C+ ambient day and blast off into the wild blue.

Is the lettuce-eating industry subject to a judicial ruling that those who engage in the activity are voluntarily engaging in a 'dangerous activity'?

You are SURE you are a person? Some here would contest that.

With the signature having to be renewed every month... and with the ever--present danger of a packet of Tripod lettuce mixture crashing into a kindergarten and killing all the children therein. However, early-solo Tripod-lettuce eaters are at least protected.

Presumably, then, we will have a CASA Instrument that mandates immediate grounding of all Jabiru engines that have been fed lettuce/lettuce mixtures originating from Tripod Farms in the period under consideration.

Surely, the relevance to this thread is the temperature that the aircraft structure starts to fail? Once the resin gets above the glass transition temperature, the structural integrity of the component is breached. I suggest that you are thinking about the decomposition of c/f tows rather than c/f structures; while some aluminium alloys will start to lose strength at above around 220-230C (Jabiru head material being a prime example in aircraft use), most resins used in basic c/f structures will be molten at that temperature, if not aflame. There are many c/f applications that have amazing temperature handling capabilities: brakes for aircraft and racing vehicles regularly get to around 1100F without failing - but those are NOT resin-compounded structures. They are 'grown' by extreme heat over a considerable period of time to a chemical mixture where the carbon is created in molecular chains - not physical strands - within the compound. High pressure is usually a feature of this process.