Bluey

I have found a link to the victorian automotive chamber of commerce which clearly indicates the Victorian position of ethanol labelling of fuels. It confirms that all fuels containing any amount of ethanol needs to be marked at the pump as containing ethanol and the percentage it contains. Here's the link: http://www.vacc.com.au/ConsumerInfo/Alternativefuels/EthanolVACCEthanolPositionPaper/tabid/2040/Default.aspx Bluey.

Ok, I haven't checked the legislation personally but the caltex operator I spoke to assured me that any ethanol content has to be stated. Are you saying he is mistaken because I may have been using ethanol laced fuel for years and not known about it. This is disturbing and I wonder how many other people This may have affected. I will search the legislation and report back. Bluey.

I have been using 95 octane fuel in my Microlight XT912's as standard practice but was recently told that this octane grade of fuel may contain less than 10% ethanol by a fellow pilot and not be advertised as containing ethanol. I was both disturbed and perplexed by this claim. After a little investigating I was told that any fuel containing even a small amount of ethanol needs to be advertised at the pump. This apparently is legislated. Yet an investigation by a fellow pilot using a typical fuel tester and a small sample of water of a range of 95 octane rated fuels from a variety of different suppliers indicated ethanol was indeed present in the fuel. This result is at odds with claims by fuel companies. The idea behind the test is that fuel that contains ethanol mixes with water causing the apparent water level in the test tube to rise above the original volume of water added. Now, if the results of my fellow aviator are taken at face value, then the fuel companies are not to be believed and we have a possible conspiracy on our hands. Alternatively, there may be another explanation and that is that other additives are giving us the same response that ethanol would. this would make this testing method invalid. Has anyone checked out the fuel they use for ethanol content by doing this test? The fuel companies have assured me that it is against the law to add any ethanol to fuel without clearly stating it at the pump. Even E10 fuel states that "up to 10%" ethanol is present in the fuel. This clearly means that the actual content may be less. Bluey.

I doubt the added weight of a a small mass of water sitting on the wing makes that much of a difference. The problem is the disruption to the airflow over the wing the beads of water or ice produce. The same disruption can occur if the wing is too dirty. Ie, covered in bugs splatter. It pays to wash your wings from time to time. Bluey.

Just wondering if anyone out there watches their ASI to determine when the wing reaches flying speed. personally, I do it all by feel. Bluey.

Thanks Alan, that supports the theory that beads of water forming on the wing after lift off cause the problem. The pilot must have been getting airborne at the lowest possible flying speed before the airflow over the wing was altered by the developing water droplets. It seems that the only way to alleviate the problem is to ensure the leading edge of the wing is dry before liftoff. Bluey.

Hi Alan, do you recall what the pilot did as they took aff that may have exacerbated the problem and cause the crash? Did the trike come down nose wheel first? Or did it drop a wing making control difficult. Bluey.

MM, from what I've seen (and maybe it is only limited to the experience I have had) airmanship is not treated as a prescribed focus area by the schools I have contact with and this is not to have a go at the people who run those schools. It is more an observation I have made and it probably reflects on the teaching experience of the people who run them. After all, most instructors do this part time as instructing full time for most is just not financially viable. Very few if any have ever had any professional teacher training and so pick it up as they go. This as you stated leads to the problems of teaching inconsistencies and quality of instructors. It should be the role of the administrative body (HGFA and RAA) to ensure that the people whose job it is to instruct are up to the task. While all instructors I've seen are excellent pilots, not all make excellent teachers. Teaching is an art that needs to be taught. A student should have a clear picture of what makes good airmanship at the end of their training not a vague notion. They should be able to identify and assess the risks of a wide variety of scenarios. In order to be able to do this it must be explicitly taught and discussed. Bluey

According to airborne, the beading of water as airspeed increases can cause an issue just after take off resulting in a change in stall speed once airborne. So the trike gets off the ground but may then stall moments later. However, if you maintain power and reduce the angle of attack there shouldn't be a problem since airspeed should quickly increase. As stated above, ice is a much bigger problem. Bluey.

From my experience in dealing with a number of different instructors over the past few years, I have noticed that there is plenty of focus on the necessary flying skills a pilot needs to be safe before being sent solo. However, there appears to be a lesser focus on the skills a pilot needs to develop good airmanship. In fact, I have found the training in this area rather lacking. Part of the problem is the way in which the RAA and HGFA audit individual flying schools. From what I have observed there is little if any scrutiny that goes on unless an incident takes place (please correct me if I'm wrong). While each respective organisation has its own training syllabus, the implimentation of the respective syllabus doesn't appear to be well audited. I can't recall the last time an instructor I know complained about having their training records inspected or programs scrutinised. Good airmanship needs to be explicitly taught as the flying environment and decision making process is not mirrored in other areas of ordinary life for most of us. Also, it is critical to the development of good flying and airmanship skills that new pilots are mentored well beyond their flight training hours. Bluey.

This accident had nothing to do with the pilots ability to control his aircraft. It had everything to do with the pilots ability to make sound and safe choices. This was most likely a human factors failure. The only way to avoid these sort of scenarios is to have a good peer group that look out for each other and aren't afraid to jump in and say hey that isn't a good idea. In the end though, it is up to the pic to make the right choices. However, in this case I have a feeling nobody could have made a difference to this pilots attitude and the sad outcome that we're all still discussing. Bluey.

Just talked to airborne about an unrelated issue and the conversation turned to flying in the wet or with wet wings. While we may have all taken off with a damp wing without any problem at least one crash has been attributed to a wet wing stalling on take off. Apparently, the build up of beads of water on a leading edge especially will significantly disrupt airflow enough to increase stalling speed by several knots. The problem arises when taking off at low air speeds. Many of us use the take off technique of simply holding the bar against the down tube and letting the trike get airborne on its own. At least this is the way some instructors I've come across teach their students to do it. My question is: Has anyone noticed the increase in stall speed of a wet wing. Given that most of us don't try to stall a trike wing too often, then many may be oblivious to the increased risk of flying in the wet, or taking off early in the morning with dew forming on the wing. It is a good idea to wipe the leading edge dry before take off early on those cold winter mornings when dew forms so readily. I know I will now add this to my pre flight check list from now on. Bluey.

It's one thing to take excessive risks in wartime where the threat of death comes from an enemy. It's another to do it in peace time for recreation. Bluey.

I was just commenting on a previous post regarding the ground speed of a few of the wings. I think it's pretty safe to say that both the pilot and his pilot passenger knew they were going to arrive after dark. Bluey.

True airspeed of a streak 3 is about 53kt. Don't take too much notice of the ASI. It is not calibrated for the trike environment. To do 60kt true airspeed in the streak takes lots of back pressure on the bar. An sst is about 5kt faster that's it. Anyway, was the trike an airborne? As the photos in the article showed something else. Political correctness should only be adhered to because this is a public forum. You can say what you like when it's not published. If this forum was viewed only by the flying community then it doesn't hurt anyone and nobody should care. Bluey.

Probably not an appropriate comment. Better left out of a public forum. Bluey.

As with any accident more than one factor was responsible for the end result. I'm sure this accident is no different. The decision to leave so late in the day was just the start. I'm sure that the ensuing investigation will reveal other disturbing occurrences. The culture of risk taking by some in our hobby is not surprising and will never be irradicated given the nature of the individual's that attracts them to flying in the first place. Only the collective action of the rest of us working together can make some individuals think twice about some of their actions. We've all heard of stories of people taking extreme risks and getting away with it. I can remember one story that occurred recently where a couple of pilots on a long cross country flight fighting adverse weather conditions decided to push on to their destination. They arrived well after dark and couldn't see the runway. Luckily, their friends who had arrived earlier were able to organise a car to illuminate the runway with it's head lights and the pair landed safely. The weather was shocking the rest of trip and no other flying was possible. On the last day, a number of aircraft decided to depart in horrible weather. A few returned soon after leaving (smart move). About three aircraft continued on despite the extreme weather. Two made it back to home base (only just) one had to outland and then rolled on take off and luckily wasn't injured (the aircraft had to be recovered). The others who stayed behind ended up having friends at home needing to rescue them with trailers. This was a big deal and showed the value and loyalty of friendship as the return drive from where the stranded pilots were situated was more than 15 hours! The point being while a few may have been horrified by all this no one really said hey, it's not worth it. I recall speaking to one of the pilots who made it home a few weeks later and asking him what he thought of that horrible trip. His reply was along the lines of what horrible trip! It was a great success! We all have built in "risk thermostats" that determine what levels of risk we are willing to take. some of us have thermostats set low and take fewer risks others have it set high and take greater risks. It is just the way we are all genetically pre-programmed. I don't know what the solution to all this is? It may well be more regulation to keep better tabs on our activities. It may well be more reporting of bad behaviour with disciplinary action possibly resulting. The risk taking will not stop by some unless they get caught and disciplined for it. one thing is certain, it will be cheaper if we can self regulate and maybe save a few lives in the process. The research is pretty clear on this, risk takers respond most to criticism from their piers than from some bureaucrat telling them that what they are doing is dangerous and they need to alter their actions. Bluey.

Me too Alf and I recently did. Bluey

Me too Alf and I recently did. Bluey

I agree with you Bill but the debate has become whether it is better to get a new 2 stroke trike or a used four stroke of about the same value. Bluey.

Thanks David, I stand corrected. The time I quoted was for western Sydney not Cootamundra. Bluey.

Which trike would you prefer to be flying, the two stroke with 400 hours or the four stroke with 400 hours? I didn't mean to imply that the rotax two stroke is unreliable. Quite the contrary, I am saying that it is more likely to suffer a sudden stoppage. If truth be told, I'd prefer a rotax two stroke on my trike to some other well known Australian made four strokes that power a well known Aussie made ultralight. In the trike, the rotax 912 must be one of the most reliable aircraft engines anywhere on the planet. Bluey.

Yes, unfortunately the fading daylight would have been one of the key factors. Last light was 6:08pm. Bluey.

Very sad to hear, my heart felt condolences go out to the family. I know some of the lovely guys who fly out there and i'm feeling pretty anxious right now. If anyone can give me more information about who was involved please send me a line on [email protected]. Bluey.

I too have heard quite a few stories of people buying damaged trikes that have not been repaired and paying good money for them only to find out from an instructor that it is not air worthy. I have so far only heard this about a few two strokes but I'm sure it would include four strokes out there. I'm with you Alf, I don't know how people do it? If an accident happens that could be attributed to the pre existing damage, then the previous owner could and should face criminal charges. I understand that the accident that fuelled this thread may be in a similar category. Bluey.