motzartmerv

Well, lets hope theres a trailer around hey?

I call BS!!

Yep..Your gunna trailer it out of an airfield oscar?

Yea, if you land it in a sh!t paddock or a short beach then of course it becomes an option. Look me in the eye and tell me your going to trailer your jab OUT of an airfield because you dont like the over shoot options.. Fairy tales boys.

So, having a trailer available to move your aeroplane from an unsuitable strip to a more suitable one to facilitate a lower risk takeoff is a realistic option? I don't think I've ever heard if anybody de ringing an aircraft and trailer ing it out because of limited forced landing areas available. Could happen I Spose,;) shall we write that into the syllabus in the new ops manual?

Omg. Now I'm a criminal for teaching fear.. Oh dear o dear.. Here's me thinking its a natural emotion hard wired into every human being. Pips death while tragic is a perfect example that there no such thing as a bullet proof pilot. If ever there was one that such a label could be applied I'm sure pip would have been a contender. My point which in sure daffyd u don't miss, just chose to ignore so you could push you wagon again, was that nobody is bullet proof. And any instructor that makes such statements is kidding himself . I've provided sound reasoning behind my arguments, and can speak from some degree Of personal experience as can others who have differing views. That's what makes discussion great hey? My position remains unchanged. I believe dealing with the shock is the key to surviving an efato.

So was Pipp Borman.

Oh, i see. Because I said Ive seen it, that automatically meant it was a student of mine.. If you have legitimate point please make it, dont fish around and write poems and sonnets and fairy tales HIC. Ive given you the respect you deserve.

Yea no problems HIC. Again, I never said that. Im happy to agree to disagree, just dont put words in my mouth mate. Believe it or not, science, technology, teaching methods, knowledge progresses. Just because it was right 20 years ago, dont mean much these days. Learning science as a field of study was only just being born around that time and has hence taught us much about how humans learn. But.. Thats not what we are talking about here...oh wait.......

When did I say my students froze in an EFATO HIC? The only student of mine that suffered an efato landed straight ahead with no problems..Bullet proof? I would never be so arrogant to suggest this, but well trained,yes.

And im being simplistic...... What a helpful statement. HIC. I think ive discovered the route of our diss agreement. I dont believe an EFATO is the same as any other upper air engine failure. Having suffered both, I can only speak from personal experience. But ill take the cct height fan stop any day. Seconds..We are talking about precious seconds. The fear response is very very real, and well documented and studied. The fear response triggered by the imminent threat to life..IMMANENT threat..Not delayed threat. Thats the key im trying to get across. The Initial reaction needs to be cognitive, not a qualitative reaction. By that i mean it cant require ANY form of processing. Thats because there is nobody home to do it. In the first .2 of a second after a threat is perceived the human body undergoes a massive massive change.: Acceleration of heart and lung action Paling or flushing, or alternating between both Inhibition of stomach and upper-intestinal action to the point where digestion slows down or stops General effect on the sphincters of the body Constriction of blood vessels in many parts of the body Liberation of metabolic energy sources (particularly fat and glycogen) for muscular action Dilation of blood vessels for muscles Inhibition of the lacrimal gland (responsible for tear production) and salivation Dilation of pupil (mydriasis) Relaxation of bladder Inhibition of erection Auditory exclusion (loss of hearing) Tunnel vision (loss of peripheral vision) Disinhibition of spinal reflexes Shaking And my favourite, an absolute blast of adrenaline and other yummy chemicals. The logic centres, ie, the front part of our brains that are responsible for learning, logic, processing info etc, are BYPASSED!!!. They are not used any more for a few seconds.. This is why pilots often say "i dont know why, but I just did it.. I turned".. Its the "perception" of the threat that we need to treat. We cant treat the response. We need to remove the boogey man idea which we are subconsciously doing when we suddenly and un expectedly ramm the throttle off etc.. This MAKES them fear the event. We de normalise the event to the point of hysteria sometimes. This thread is a perfect example.

Some react well, and land straight ahead or in a direction closely aligned with the heading they were on. Some react poorly- They freeze, dont really do anything, hold the controls where they are and basically stall straight ahead (yes, ive seen this on more htne one occasion) Some turn back. The worst decision of all. Yes sure, some have made it, some can do it from a practice at 10 bloody thousand feet, but a sh!tload have NOT. And have spun in. Do you really need an explanation or were you just being vexatious? The FACTs are, its one of the most dangerous things you can do in a plane statistically. Most people have a pre determined turn back height ALREADY included in their take off safety brief dont they? What you guys seem to be advocating is finding where under perfect conditions exactly this height is and adding some fufge to it. Great, go for it. That sounds bloody fantastic, and in a perfect world, where everything works as it should, the 10 hour pilot will calmly look at their alt and note the height and make a perfect split ass turn and =return gracefully to the runway. All because they applied the Forumites perfect world forumla.. Let me give you option B.. The 10 hour pilot takes seconds to COMPUTE the engine is no longer producing power (the prop still spinning mind you) . Then he panics and freezes for a second or two more.. Then, in the heat of the moment he tries to recall what height the formula he worked out on that perfect day 3 months ago was.. HHmm..nope, im at a loss, before he even has a chance to stop himself, hes in the split ass turn, the IAS is sweet bugga all, the stick is back at the stop and the opposite aileron is hard over trying to stop the spin. Thus is a scenario that I could provide multiple, multipl examples of..And even change the 10 hour pilot to 1000 hour pilot..Or 5000 hour instructor.. 3000 hour aerobatic pilot... I fear that in the telling of this thread we are losing the prime reason for the fatalities..IMHO it is NOT a lack of height. It is a total loss of control, initiated by a fear response to a pre existing and pre installed FEAR of the event itself. WE are putting this fear into them by the way we train for it. This is a view that was put to ME by smarter people then the lot of us. Take it or leave it..

HIC. Mate, nobody is disagreeing with me. I have only advocated that the issue is NOt running out of height. Its losing control of the aeroplane. There are mire then enough stats to suport this FACT. I would still like to see any indication we are dealing with a "loss of height issue". My concerns are that we are all spending such effort on dissecting and rationalising, and trying to write a formula for an issue that is indefinable. You can NOT apply logic to a situation where fear takes control. I appreciate your point of view HIC, and at no stage have i indicated contempt for disagreeing with me. Please refrain from starting a sh!t fight with me. I have watched and listened to your point of view, and as you say, everyone is entitled to their opinion. My views are supported by facts, stats and current research. Turning back kills people buddy, show me evidence to the contrary, and Ill eat my hat.

Wake up and smell the coffee guys...

Any evidence at all that there is a "pilot not making it back due to insufficient height " problem.

Can any one of you clever blokes show me a stat, or a crash report indicating where a pilot has turned back, came up short and been killed?

Yes no doubt keith. I probably didnt pay much attention as i Live 1000 miles away, but ended up near there due to shifts in the wind! Although, I did learn to fly there years ago.

Im SOOOOO p!ssed. I flew past thangool on the day. From PERTH too, so I would have snipped that trophy maj, I didnt realise it was on. I heard all the traffic tho. DAM!!!!.. I went longreach, over Blackwater to Gladstone. Flew straight past!!!.. Ps. Perth to Gladstone in 4 days in a sporstar. Was a good trip...

Again, forced landings are not the issue. 100 kts at 450 ft in a glider? How does that relate to the thread topic? My mum could land a glider from there.

Yes? And the point is?

The issue isnt weather you can get back. From what height you can in what aeroplane, bla bla. People aren't crashing and dieing by coming up short after turning back. They aren't miss judging the heights, or writing wrong numbers on scribble pads or bits of perspex. They are failing to control the aeroplane when the sh!t hits the fan. AND THATS IT..You can all argue about heights and drawing on your ALT etc all day. But this just shows you are failing to grasp the problem. The issue is that people REACT differently. Some react well and quickly. Some react poorly, and some TURN BACK. A forced landing from altitude is nothing like what we are dealing with here and is hardly even worth mentioning in the same chapter.. A forced landing even from cct height does not require split second decisions. From cruise speed (generally) you can sit there fat dumb and happy for quite a while, do nothing, and nothing will happen. You will have time to get over the shock and awe that sets your brain off into flight mode. Then finally after X amount of time, your logic centres fire back up and you can handle the problem. You can plan all day. You can tell yourself im gunna lower the nose etc, and while that certainly helps, there is not much you can do to prepare for how YOU will react if the band stops playing on upwind and your left holding the tin!! Normalising the manoeuvre is the key. Making it such a natural thing to do that its as cognitive as putting on power when you feel slow over the fence. Its all to do with how we are taught. When an instructor pulls power and shocks you, its creates an event horizon in your mind that you cross over into "the danger zone". SH!T the powers off..Now, react!!. Or, OH SH!T I hope he doesn't chop the power on me again. Compare it to stalling. Does your instructor suddenly grab the aircraft off you while your flying around, stall it savagely and sit back and watch what you do? Does he suddenly pull the stick back to the stop when your at 100 ft on final? NO, he doesn't. He briefs you, explains whats going to happen. He demonstrates, and you slowly learn the recovery procedure, then and only then do you go onto more advanced manoeuvres. NEVER does this include a sudden, un announced un prepared STALL. The same thing needs to be applied to EFATO's. We as Instructors need to normalise the procedure as much as possible by useing better training techniques then pulling the pin and saying lower the nose. We can do much better.

Yep, thats where they are :)

Probably things that would be covered in any LOW LEVEL endorsement or rating. Ive never seen a powerline at 1000ft.

Bandit send me your email addey and ill send you what we have so far. Cheers mate

Ok daffyd, I will remember that. Keep the speed up and I won't stall. Got it. Thank you.