motzartmerv

I hadn't thought if demonstrating the effects of controls before. Thanks for the tip. :) hehe

Lol.I try not to, my shrink tells me not to feed my fetishes..It never ends up good.!

Yes Nev. It was abit confusing. But I sorta took the word of my chief who wanted it done that way (leaving it on). Id never had a reason not to trust him and he encouraged people to think about what they were being shown and not just follow blindly. The second chief (mr cranky, dont leave your hand on it) was a bit of a cranky bugga, and to be honest, I lost a lot for him when he laughed at me for choosing to land on a runway without papi, when the other runway had it. Although I was into wind ? It was only a dutchess, so nothing really nasty, but I just thought we were on different pages. Anyway, I do prefer to stay in contact with the switch, same with flaps etc. Just to be sure. Just a thing, and I wouldnt begrudge anybody that didnt do it that way.

All instructors are different. I had a chief get very cranky at me fr keeping my hand on the landing gear switch while it was transiting up or down. The chief that endorsed me on twins abused me for NoT holdin the switch. At the end of the day, they both had valid points.

Normally it isn't too much of a problem. Everybody has little differences. I'm not too fussed in the small stuff. If a pilot comes to me for a bfr or endo training, and he does things differently, I don't try and change him. As lkng as he's safe and knows what he's doing. I don't profess that my ways are the only ways. If you pick the flaps up at 300 instead if 200.. Or you turn the fuel pump off at 500 instead if 1000... Bla bla.,. I don't care.. BUT.. If you turn te aeroplane with ur feet and throw in opposite aileron, and that the way you do it... Then I have a duty of care to you to fix your deadly error...

Yenn. Tell me about it. I was gobsmacked.

I had one recently who was exactly the same. I wrote to th raa and recomended he lose his pax endo until re training. It was that bad. He turned with rudder and held off the bank aileron EVERY turn. Climbing turn, almost full rudder and opposite aileron . I thought he was taking the p|ss. But no, he just did not know how to turn an aeroplane.

Stall turns are not done with rudder only. Picking up a dropped wing with rudder can result in a spin in the opposite direction. A spiral will only be possible of you have unstalled the wing.

Nev, have we met? I'm thinking you mite have me mixed up with someone else. I've not done an instructors briefing at natfly. I would like to, but I'm sure I would get boo'd off stage.. Hehe

Hahaha. I don't know anymore than anybody else, I'm just far less diplomatic. I'm getting better tho!!!

Tubz, we have to let discussion take its course, but I do draw the line at downright WRONG info being propagated. i agree that learning by correspondance is a very unsafe way to go, and would hope that we try to avoid it as far as practical.

I seriously worry sometimes. The information that gets shared in these discussions has potential to do some serious damage, or at least, undermine what we as instructors spend so much time and effort trying to install. Side slipping is NOT pro spin. It is actually ANTI spin. The sideslip is a normal manourvre and is actually part of the RAA training syllabus (section 3.04) and therefopr MUST be demostrated for certificate issue. You even need to demonstrate a slipping turn of 90 deg's. Some aircraft (low wings) with selectable fuel tanks MAy have problems with uncovering fuel intakes. But any POH will spell this danger out.

yoju miss the point. Yes, the flap can change the attitude of the aeroplane, but do you use it to control the attitdue? Do you lower and raise flap to hold the nose in the cruise attitude? or the clim attitude? No, you dont. The same applies to the rudder, its there to co ordinate the turns WITH aileron. It provides control about the normal or vertical axis. nothing more, it isnt used to control roll.

:clap:My kind of guy, the glass is always half full!!.. Well done mate.. Enjoy:happy dance:

Yes col, CASA are currently reviewing our new ops manual. It will be getting some exposure at natfly im told.

Kick rudder in a graveyard spiral? Dude. Ailerons control roll!!!! Not the rudder!!!. Secondary and further effects of controls are NoT what we use to control the aeroplane. Flap changes pitch too, but we don't use it control te attitude do we?? Carb heat will lower rpm, but we don't use it to do so ( float drivers excluded) . We don't fly on further effects. We do all we can to negate them. The ailerons control roll!!!

Hey, at least it's still provisioned in our regs and they havnt taken it out. The new ops manual has it included in a more meaningful and realistic way I'm told. Thank heavens we still hve 'some' connection to our specific form of flying.

Agreed nev. I don't know where instructors get this notion of using only rudder. Rediculous way to fly IMHO and I'd fail any pilot who fronted to a test and used this technique.

Insipient stall? wing drops (recovery's) are meant to be taught as per 3.04 of the ops manual.

Peter. If you mention the words airspeed and stalling together again, im gunna scream. I have serious concerns for some of the advice you are offering here. please be careful. neutral stick and opposite rudder to avoid a spin? Why does an aeroplane spin? What are the two ingredients that MUSt be met? There are plenty of Ifs, and quite a few buts here. Sorry.

No problem greybeard. I should have been clearer about the requirements. When you sign the dotted line and accept tht you are to be trained in accordance with the raa ops manual and publications, you are agreeing to the training syllabus and all that entails. I agree that aviation is bigger than the raa.. There is also a glider federation..;)

Greybeard. The CFI thing is very relevant, and please dont make this personal. The rules state that fan stops are permitted in the circuit ONLY BY A CFI in appropiate conditions. So My statement that im not recommending that you do it, and that you are not permitted to do it, is very relevant to weather you you are a CFI or not due to the regulation specifying this as pre requisite. I believe I presented a logical argument as to why I CHOSE to do it with my students. If you have an opinion to the contrary then by all means share it. But please use something to back your opinion. Knife throwing and bunjy jumping anoagolies are not really relevant here. If you believe its not safe then thats your opinion. My opinion is that its not safe for a pilot NOT to understand his machine in ALL realms of flight. Please see my above post for the positive learning outcomes I (and most other instructors who have commented here) believe are possible when the sequence is managed properly. Regardless of opinions, it is a permitted activity in RAA training aircraft. So it appears at least your statements about the 'general consensus' are not accurate.

Are you a CFI?

Greybeard. Nobody's giving you advice. You arent permitted to to stop the engine and nobody is recommending that you do. The discussion is on the benifits of it being used as a training practice.

Without putting to fine a point on it, if there is an added risk due to the CFI not being able to keep the aeroplane safe, with regards to distance from the strip etc, then the CFI should take up something else. It really is (should be) bread and butter for any decent Instructor. The benefits far outweigh the risk. Have you ever attempted a true restart in the air? Do you know what the symptoms of an engine about to run out of fuel are? How much time do you get to swap tanks if one tank is exhausted? Have you tried to land with your vision obscured by the prop being stopped in the perfectly 'wrong position'.? Have you experienced the 'shock' of having a stopped prop starring you in the face ? How do you think you will handle that shock.? How will the aeroplane handle with out the windmilling prop? Will the prop windmill at all? or will it stop dead? Should you coursen or fine up an adjustable prop to maximise glide range? Can you use the prop position to aid in increasing drag if you need it? is the aeroplane still going to fly??? Or will it fall from the sky like it does on the movies? But the biggest advantage to students is ..... The confidence they can (and do) acquire by realising that they can have complete control over the aeroplane without the use of power and actually put the thing down exactly where they want to. Not just a theoretical knowledge, but a real, practiced and perfected skill. If you think all those learning outcomes are outweighed by the small chance an experienced CFI will balls up the approach AND the engine wont start again, then we will have to agree to dissagree.