motzartmerv

Good pedigree Bob .. :) Stick around mate.

haha..No mate. Its all good. :) My heads are well baffled, nice and cool..

Fair dinkum? Good stuff mate. great to have you on the forum mate. We all miss Tony.. he was a legend around these parts..

yea Bob. The gazelle was/ is a true lady. Lost a good mate in one a few years ago due to wing departure,:( By all accounts the aeropower is a good performer. Although the numbers arent there yet. Not here anyway. Ill be testing a homebuilt with one it it soon so Ill have a better idea. Look good on paper though.

Nice to see qualified responses from members with 'real' background. Are you still in the game?

yea, right. My old memory not too shabby then. :) Seen the name in many many gazelle log books.

Yes, im a little familiar with some of those docs, and quite familiar with others..I agree, ZZZZZZZZZZ time. But no mattrer what rule or reg you find, theres always 3 or 4 somewhere else that add ambuguity to the one you just spent 1/2 an hour looking up!!... Your last name rings a bell. Did you have the gazelle aileron mod authority?

I like that Bob. Just pop out and read ANA1920 etc.. Just a few pages of light reading for us. :)

biggles, those temps look great, and nice and even aswel. Are they as marked? 3 and 4? One of our jabs (170) has always ran very cool in CHT and oil temp. While the 160 has always been a hot engine. CHT's routinely 30 or 40 deg's hotter than the 170, but still within the specs. The hottest engine (j) we have seen was in a 230 a few years ago. Always hot, always pushing the limits of the quoted specs. Pilots needed to fly it very particularly or risk over heating it. It never suffered a breakdown while online with us, but did suffer valve failure some years later when with another school. Just 1 month ago a member bought an LSA 55 and had it delivered to the airfield. After .9 of an hour of flying it too suffered a valve seat failure. Both pilots stated it never got hot and the previous owner stated it was always a cool runner. To be fair, this aeroplane had not done alot of work in the previous year. While I think heat is a contributing factor in some of the problems, I dont think it explains it all. We have several other jab engines we have run for extended periods with our school that have had varying degrees of success and failures. But to date the longest lasting engine is the 170, which has just clocked 900 hours. It snapped a through bolt stud at about 750 hours only 30 hours after the mandatory mod was performed. jabiru copped to that one explaining that the wrong parts were sent and installed. They warranted the damage due to their stuff up. There was simply no way out of it for them as the wrong part was sent and we still had the engine so they couldn't run. But..Im confidant that engine would have made the 1000 hrs. Out of 5 aircraft we have operated (significantly) one of them 'probably' would have made it to top end overhaul. The rest did not. The stats in this poll, while only being 3o or so samples, dont look favourable at all, and certainly my own personal experience with them would align quite closely with the 10% of engines making top end of 1000 with no major problems (indicated in this poll) Small samples such as this are still quite usable when looking purely at stats, although admittedly there are many more not represented. However, 30 samples, spread across a range of users is statistically quite ok to get a general idea of things. Dont hang your hat on them, but certainly dont chuck the results out with the bath water. If this thread proves nothing else, it should serve as a prompt for any potential Buyer to go into the whole thing with eyes wide open. You will most probably, at some stage be spending money on your engine. You may not have to, but at least now you can't say you didnt know it was a 'possibility', some would say a high probability.The mods that 'learned' people speak of certainly do seem to offer a more reliable platform, although, this 'theory' cant be tested in the same way 24 rego'd school aeroplanes (think of taxis) can test the waters. Again, im only commenting on personal experience and the results of this poll, not offering an opinion. (as per my promise) for what its worth. http://www.measuringusability.com/blog/stats-usability-errors.php

Too right Andy.

Good question Andy. They are generally receptive when you point out inconsistency and errors in the manuals. We have had them change one or two things. Just point it out and they should fix the piblications. :)

Yes, so like I said, you won't read about it, but it does happen.

The real key to sorting the problem is in the reporting. The only way we will get it fixed is if we make noise, and by that I mean furnish the people who can make a change, with the reports when you find things not up to scratch, or defective. Unfortunately you cant report an "attitude' from the factory, but you can report QA issues. Defective parts. Defective repairs etc. report it all! Only takes a few minutes to fill in the form and send it in. keep accurate records and if your 24 rego'd and hiring the aeroplane- keep bloody accurate records of everything you do and make sure you dont deviate from the maint manuals.

Bruce, heat certainly does seem to be the issue. Unfortunately we can't modify the factory built training aeroplanes.

Volsky, just because its not advertised, doesn't mean it doesn't happen..Did you read about the YGLB GA school that got 24 NCN's from CASA? They dont put that in the papers, but im sure you KNOW it happened? The points I listed were just the cases ive been involved with. One little school:) You do the maths. If your looking for a stick to beat the RAA up with, perhaps look a little closer to the school near you:)

Where is the tongue biting icon..

Good onya Chris. Well done!!1

Thanx for the informative response oscar, this poll was posted over a year ago, so perhaps an updated one would help with accurate figures. The engine report you quoted didnt tell the operator anything new, as they knew it went supernova over a few seconds. The operator has YET to receive an indication as to what caused the sudden over temp. The 2200 engine operated by the same person had 4 channel monitoring of the CHT and EGT for its entire (post factory top end) which clearly showed no over heat event. Further, that same operator that Jabiru (and you , seemingly) seem so quick to offer as a 'reason' maintains other Jabiru engines and rotax engines, with no reportable problems. Out of three Jab engines and 4 rotax engines maintained and operated over the same period by the same people, two engines, (one 2200 and one 3300) have suffered significant component failures. While the third Jab 2200 engine and all the rotax engines have had NO such failures. For the thesis of "the operator and maintainer " being at fault to hold water, this anomaly needs explanation or the thesis can be disregarded. Further to my promise to not offer my 'opinion' on these engines I provide the above as facts only.

1. Local pilot forced to undergo retraining due to CTA breaches 2. Two local pilots forced to undergo CTA awareness training after a significant breach of CTA 3. Instructor application denied until a second check performed by a third party was passed due to previous history of the pilot 4. Aircraft grounded until independent inspection of homebuilt cheetah was performed due to the 'history' of the aircraft. 5. BFR rejected until FURTHER training performed by a flying school, with a list of "obligations' forced apon the pilot from the RAA. 6. Suspension of pax carrying endorsement of a pilot until further training provided due to a report from a CFI of 'observed' poor standards. Thats just what I can recall over the past year or so. Any more questions volsky?

Far out greybeard, now THATS a beard!!!

The funny thing is, I dont believe I am biased towards jabiru's. I actually like the aeroplanes. I have one still online with my school. Ive had more than half a dozen online in various Schools and have Instructed for other schools that also have them online. So probably first hand operational (not private) experience on over a dozen jabs of various shapes and sizes. Ive made my (small ) living from them for the last 6 years. So I reckon I do have a unique 'data' base to draw from. That being said Im well aware of the short comings with the engines but more importantly the factory and the treatment they provide operators with. And without knocking or slanging, this is by far the most worrying aspect. I continue to recommend the aeroplanes to people, one of my mates bought one just before xmass, because they really are unbeatable when you consider bang for buck. So a real love hate relationship exists for me, and I believe Ive earned the right to form a reasonably accurate OVERALL opinion of the aeroplanes. My issues are, and continue to be, that I wont back down when challenged or called a Liar. I am very sorry for what transpired in this thread, and I will curtail my defensive posturing. I will also stop offering my opinion on jabiru's. It never helps and just gets people off side and cranky. I will continue to work through the system to help Jabiru produce a more reliable engine. Andy out.

True . I appolagise, it does nobody any good to see this sort if thing. THe worst thing is the message gets lost in the crap. And for that I am truely sorry.

Rank. I would never criticize a pilot for making a decision to go around. The pilot I witnessed in this day just couldn't seem to manage the aeroplane onto the ground. Was a hundred feet high if not more every time. The decision to go around was not a decision really. More a necessity. The 800 meter strip was obviously out of the pilots ability. That gave me extreme concerns as it would have any instructor.

Im not asking you to name your friends or contacts. Just yourself. So thats not meeting half way is it? My airfield is close to Mittagong, feel free to call in anytime. Watch the tiger country between us though, not good jab country. Ps, was that you that flew in with a young lady a few weeks ago? Took 3 landing attempts in calm air?

Lol.. i'll get to you later!!!