Peter Collins

Let's remember the topic is "steering-on-final-with-rudder". Yes, many aircraft fly differently. Yes, unstalled rate 1 turns with rudder may feasible, and this pilot, being lazy and slack, uses them (in his plane) most of the time in high cruise, but NEVER in circuit. After late final I believe it would take really good understanding of the aircraft behaviour, and your own skill, to get the bloody stick forward. I know of at least two cases of damage hereabouts due to that. Several instructors have told me NEVER even ease the stick forward at low level. Hold it back, let it settle, or, if you are too high, give it more power. But what would I know - I'm a relative greenhorn. But I DO fly finals balanced or slip. Slip I use if too high (or if far too high I fly balanced "S"s or "8"s towards the field until I am low enough - or go round, depending on whether farm or airfield, the circumstances and the field rules), and I also use slip to get and stay aligned for a cross-wind landing. From base and onwards I make ALL turns with increased descent (sort of 'diving into them' somewhat, just in case I was already a bit too 'slow'). Coming over the hedge, I also lower the nose for a few more knots as I round out rather than risk a wind-sheer pancake (which I have found can lead to unwanted workshop time and bills). I'm NOT saying fly like I do. Don't. I'm not an instructor, and your plane will be different. But these things I have been variously taught, they might be useful discussion topics with YOUR instructor(s). P

Read what Noel Kruse has to say about the Caribou, it's control systems, and what it's like to fly! But advanced expertise doesn't hurt, either! P

... aha! I always knew the Corby had idiosyncratic responses to control inputs. Or maybe you were inverted? P

... but only if you didn't have the revs in the right range for the speed at which the clutch release was executed. See, we can be pedantic about ground vehicles, too. Oh, it's okay to take the piss, by the way. Since I had the operation it's no longer a problem. P

Okay, maybe I deserved that - but to be fair, it WAS a matter that someone had expressed concern about earlier, wasn't it? Plus, I have been taught cross-wind two different ways (yes, all instructors ARE different) one stressfully down on the runway just above stall speed, once per circuit; and one up in the big high sky practicing yaws and slips and crabs and transitions until when we finally came down to earth it was pretty ho-hum in comparison. Anyhow, I know you wouldn't take it personally (for I didn't have you in mind - sorry, but it's true).

Wow - "The Psychology Of Landing Yaw" - I can't wait for the movie to come out. How do we feel about getting the novice up high and having them just hold the stick and quite rapidly push the nose left and right with the pedals, to get the feel of how things will go, while there is time to do a few of them, while there is no other distraction (landings are intellectually demanding - oh there's the psychology again), while there is room and time to recover (in the most unlikely event that might be needed), for, as someone pointed out maybe a hundred posts ago, in circuit you only get one crack at something like that each time round. Huh? P

Oh dear! Context, context. Certainly the stall turn requires throttle, elevator AND THEN rudder only (if properly done?). I'm learning a great amount from this thread, and the reading it's leading me to. Did not Williams, Neil (2003) [First published 1975]. Aerobatics. Marlborough, UK: Crowood Press. ISBN 9780950454306. write: "Enter at full power and maximum airspeed. Pull the aircraft up through a quarter loop into a vertical climb. The speed will decay but before upward motion stops firmly apply full rudder to yaw the aircraft through a cartwheel of 180° until the nose is straight down. Dive vertically to the same altitude as the maneuver started, then pull out, exiting in the opposite direction.[1]" - quoted in Wikipedia (which I admit may have got it wrong). Agreed that picking up a wing with rudder can result in an opposite spin - because that increases the AOA on the down-going wingtip particularly, but surely that is even more likely if the ailerons are countering the yaw-induced roll because of the aileron drag also contributing to autorotation. However, my context was not stall-flying but rudder-while-landing. Agreed that the deathyard spiral is an unstalled manoeuvre. But my context was regarding a comment, some pages back, about steering (in cruise) with rudder alone (which I had asserted in my plane did result in banking from secondary effect and thus a balanced turn). We were (correctly) warned that applying down rudder would lead to a graveyard spiral. I repeat, that is true, but you have to hold in more rudder, for far longer, than is sufficient to achieve, while cruising, a gentle course correction of a few degrees. You can crash a car with over-steering or holding the wheel to the radius of a corner long after it has been turned. Same with a plane. You have to know what you are doing, and do the right amount, the right way, at the right time, whatever different combinations of input you choose. It applies to driving, cycling, cooking, and most everything in life. Bottom line (once more) know yourself and your plane and how it responds and fly careful and safe with expert instruction in every aspect that departs from the conventional (and I hope we all know what that means). Of course you must understand how and why YOUR plane handles, using whichever control inputs, during landings with or without cross-wind, if you are on or off the centre-line, too. If your instruction leaves you wanting to ask this forum for clarification, if it were me, I'd go find an instructor who can explain the aeronautics clearly so you understand the various interactions, and who will then go up with you and help you get the techniques from learning mode to automatic mode. Fly safe. P

"A yaw that is continuous is the one that accelerates one wing." ... and a wing that accelerates, given the "V-squared" in physics of flight generates more lift, and the resulting upward component puts the relative wind at a smaller angle to chord and so reduces AOA which takes things further from the stall region. More lift, less stall - what's not to like? See AOPA Live: Rod Machado: License to Learn: Prevent Spin with Rudder. That depends on using the appropriate foot and force, at the right moment, for the right length of time. In every field of life you can do the right thing or the wrong thing depending on the situation. Using rudder to pick up wing is fine, but if you will hold it in you will almost certainly get a graveyard spiral - but why hold it? When you corner your car, if you don't unwind at the right time and just hold it in, you'll go off the road for sure, won't you? Flying ain't that different. Never say never. A stall turn is done at zero speed, with I have no idea what AOA, and (I gather) rudder only. Never use rudder only? Fine for commuter flying perhaps? Decide why you want to fly, and what sort of flying you want to do. If it's commuting, fine - balanced, conservative AOA, and all like that: most excellent. If it's a sort of aerial moto-cross, also fine but you will have to learn a great deal more about how your plane handles in a wide range of unusual attitudes and speeds, when to use secondary effects and how much and why, and unless you are an aerobatic test pilot you must get instruction from one who is, and practice, practice, practice. My points about what works, for my plane, are my own experience and I repeat your plane may be different and you should get instruction. In my plane I have spent very many hours with instructors including a bush-fire water-bomber pilot, an aerobatics champion, and the much-vaunted Noel Kruse (whose books are great - but cockpit hours with him trumps the books big-time!) For your type of flying, know your abilities and your plane, and before you try anything 'new' - check it out with an instructor who has that as their recognised speciality. All instructors are NOT equal. All are good, yes, but at different things. That applies to rudder when landing, too. P

Yeah, put me down as ignorant. What are called 'primary' and 'secondary' effects seem to me to be matters of convention rather than fundamental physics. If 'bottom rudder' is bad, why isn't 'top rudder' good? I've just been told that a wing drop stall won't spin you if you are balanced. But the wing drop pushes the ball out so I'd expect you'd need to apply bottom rudder to keep the ball centred, because (if I've got this right) one aspect of the wing-drop stall is that the inner aileron has lost lift effectiveness (and got a whole heap draggier). Yes, lower the nose, and surely, now we are in a spiral? Sure, that's not a spin, so I guess the advice is correct - but is it merely an alternative way to crash? I certainly wouldn't want to use ailerons alone to roll out of the spiral, due to adverse yaw, but rudder will deal with that aileron problem, and could even roll you out, without the ailerons, not so? And flaps do indeed control pitch and some of us have been taught that we should use them to give better visibility in some situations, and that one of the problems in the flapless landing can be it's so much harder to see everything. I dunno - it's an instructor thing, I guess.

Yes, with rudder, as with everything, one needs to understand the effects, and do the smart thing. For example, there are times when pushing the stick forward will rescue you, for example from a stall. But if you are flying straight and level and then hold the stick forward, that would probably end up fatal. Among the things I have been told, it: "Kick for the sky" which I understand to mean in a spin apply opposite rudder, and the same in a graveyard spiral. Of course you can kill yourself with rudder, if you don't know what you are doing - but that applies to all the controls, and indeed to most aviation decision-making. P

Matty, the thread is steering-on-final-with rudder, though I agree with your whole post, particularly that my flying is probably sloppy, and happy to acknowledge that; and that the feet can be used to pick up a wing when your hands are busy. I'm a 76 year-old retired 'many things' including unemployed ski instructor, retired commercial/industrial researcher, statistician, teacher and so on. I'm about as unpolitical as you can get. I've got 600 hours at about 200 hours per year plus maybe 50 hours under instruction in gyros. I have endorsements for mountain flying, hood, partial panel, unusual attitudes, and lazy-8s to 90 degrees in my aircraft (which is permitted for spinning). I believe we should keep current in all aspects of flying including heavy turbulence, taking the plane out and back to all corners of its safe envelope using gentle technique and keeping the load WELL within the working stress limits. I know that to get six views on how to fly, you only need ask three instructors. Some instructor or other has at some time told me to do one or other of all the things I have expressed. If some seem contradictory, that sure is one of the things you learn as a student - one says 'slip it down' and the next says 'never slip - you'll kill yourself'. One says 'pick it up with rudder' and the next says 'you must be balanced all the time'. Yes, I pick out the bits that suit me best, but I never ignore the rest of it - and as a result I reckon I can fly almost every way any instructor asks. Not perfectly perhaps but it's good to be versatile, because the weather and terrain sure isn't constant. My web page is www.peter-collins.org and my flight follower is www.tinyurl.com/petertravel but I'm not getting much air time while I prepare the new plane for registration and testing. And I never said never to use the ailerons - though I admit I don't use them when just cruising along. But they do have that bad habit, at unhelpful times, of taking the AOA over the peak of the curve and increasing drag while decreasing lift. Those who forget it, at low level, sometimes learn a hard lesson the bad way. I haven't, yet, but maybe I'm lucky or over-compulsive, or something. However, the rudder, as I understand it, doesn't have that problem. P

Every fixed wing, three axis I've flown so far does exactly what Matty says - the rudder picks up the wing. The plane certainly doesn't just yaw and stay flat. Gentle rudder ... the wing picks up which introduces roll and THEN the banked aircraft executes a balanced turn. I challenge anyone to use yaw alone in a hands-off turn WITHOUT any matching roll occurring. And you finesse how you use your feet. At the roll-out, you gently use the other foot to lift the other wing, and you are back straight and level. Come on you guys - try it! And please, without saying "Never" or "Always" do explain how the AOA can be exceeded or any sort of crossed control introduced this way. Oh, we're not talking 3g turns, more like rate 0.5. Where, exactly, is the danger? P

I stand corrected. I should indeed, for the novice readers, have written that the steep, low turn is dangerous precisely because of the high likelihood that the FSX video will eventuate (thanks, "Ultralights"). But note that the simulated problem became fatal when the rudder was still steering into the turn and the pilot was attempting to roll out using the ailerons (leading with the ailerons, and balancing with the rudder is indeed the standard good technique but it got the FSX into trouble) - I have heard that it could be safer to fractionally lead with the rudder and balance with the ailerons and that only a really observant instructor can tell the difference - and it might have saved the FSX? Isn't it the case that spin recovery (or better still, avoidance) generally requires: 1. reduce revs (not so relevant on approach?) 2. neutral ailerons; 3. opposite rudder; 4. lower the nose. Hence, in a low-speed, tight turn, if rolling out with ailerons could precipitate a spin (if you were stupid enough to turn tight, low and slow, okay?) the best option might be the spin-avoidance strategy of neutral stick and opposite rudder? That is, use the feet to get out of the turn. And of course lower the nose. Your plane might be different - get an instructor with you, go up 3000', and try it. My instructor said - very firmly - that I was approaching stall, keep the stick central and use busy feet. And, if you must turn tight, slow and low (with a death wish?) do remember that it's a trap - you can feel safe getting into the turn, but it's attempting to come OUT of the turn that could kill you - especially if you use the ailerons, because the inner one may stall as soon as look at you, even if the ball is centered. Well, that's what I've been taught, and I practice at altitude, and it does work for me. Up there, anyhow. No ifs and buts - don't attempt to use ailerons to level the wings if the airspeed is down and stalling is imminent - use the rudder. When landing, the airspeed is down and stalling is imminent. I could be mistaken, but it's what I've been taught and I would appreciate an aeronautical/physics-based rebuttal if I'm wrong. "Good technique" is certainly a sound reason but those with enquiring minds may like to understand the 'why' of it. Oh, yes, passengers. My passengers all greatly enjoy flying with me, generally I'm hands-off (as I'm lazy) on trips of hundreds of nm, including instructors, even in turbulence. But I admit I fly IBIS GS700 (about 200 hrs/year) and maybe they are right to call it the "Magic". Other planes may be very different. P

Wow, that sounds like my first IBIS, which I flew around southern VIC from Tooradin for a week in June 2011 before buying it and shipping it to NZ. It's mark then was 247125, but rapidly changed to ZK-PLC at Rangiora (NZRT) where I have flown it for another 400 hrs in the last three years, before selling it, because I have bought another one (there's true love for you) with an injected Rotax 912iS, Robinson wings, an Odyssey screen, and to please the wife in this colder climate, - a heater. I just love the GS700 - it's a lazy man's plane, flies itself, but hugely strong and agile if you want to throw it around the sky (not inverted, of course!). Roomy, comfortable, rated at 600kg but still NZ microlight. Eight hour tanks, which will be ten hours using the injected engine. And the design has a great pedigree! I'm told by those who also fly Cessna that it may look alike but the similarity ends there.

Feet are for steering and for spin avoidance or spin recovery. Flying balanced is great to maintain economy and keep from spilling the wine in 1st Class, but in my view has little else to recommend it. Steep low-level turns are not dangerous - it's getting the plane level afterwards that will kill you - unless you do it with your feet. Lead with your feet, balance with the stick. Best of all, use your feet unaided by hands except at times of complex manoeuvres (like take-offs and landings). A plane under rudder will bank itself and generally fly balanced due to secondary effect. Sure, the nose will drop a bit in the turn, but as you steer back to straight and level (feet only, and ball off-centre - learn to like it) the extra speed will translate to a modest climb and you'll be back to where you started. This works on final, too. but you need to be comfortable riding a bike with no hands, and get to be that comfortable with your plane as well. You can fly a 200 nm passage through turbulence no hands once you learn busy feet. To get comfortable with cross-winds, fly up and down fence lines in cross wind, keeping on track by crabbing or slipping (aligned), climbing and descending, wind from left or right, switching from crab to slip and back now and then. A couple of hours of that every few days and it starts to become automatic. Then for the actual landings ... all the way down final get into an aligned slip like you know how without even thinking about it, keep adjusting as you will without thinking about it, and land the sucker. Why don't I like the crab and twitch method? Because it has to be exquisitely timed just as you touch - too early or too late makes a mess, and I'm still not that good a pilot to be sure when the float will end, so I mostly get the 'twitch-timing' wrong. But the slip stays correct, however long I float. Oh, I almost forgot, if you ever find yourself with one main punctured, or missing, get lined up for a dead stick landing, turn off the mags, jab the starter until the prop is horizontal (won't work for a three-blade) then roll in on a slip and hold that unsupported wing up HARD with the stick (or yoke) and be prepared to ground-loop around the wingtip as it comes down to the ground. It's possible, and it's happened here and there was only minor damage to the wingtip. Unfortunately it's not something that's easy to practice realistically, but fortunately it's not likely to happen to you. I fly IBIS GS700 - I have two, one with Robinson gear, one without (which I have just negotiated to sell). P