walrus

Thank you for the advice, I guess that is the way I have to go.

RF guy, RAA and other organisations HAVE to reject this proposal out of hand or otherwise they are conceding Airservices the right to make arbitrary decisions. We are then reduced to just being supplicants pleading for a few crumbs from the table. AsA should not have done any of this, but now they have been stupid enough to raise the issue, we are within our rights to request a holistic and risk management derived National airspace strategy that reverses the *** sandwich they have been feeding Australian GA and RAA pilots for years. If you have ever flown into LAX and had a window seat you will know what I mean. Far too restrictive rules on access to controlled airspace and huge chunks reserved for the RAAF are just the beginning. The East coast of Australia is just a series of lethal and unnecessary road blocks to GA and RAA aircraft.

RAA.....Bravo!

you need it in your jacket pocket when flying.

I have a question regarding the use of Dynon Skyview equipment for ADSB. The Skyview transponder is certified, so that is OK. The Dynon GPS it uses for full ADSB (SIl =2, SDA = 3) is not certified but the combination is accepted by the FAA as meeting their ADSB standards (CFR whatever) - the Dynon manuals specifically state this, as does their software setup screen. CAO 20.18 requires that GPS position sources meets clause 3 of Part B of Appendix XI - Transmitting Equipment. This says that the GPS must be an IFR capable unit covered by one of TSO's 145, 146 or 196. Folks, these are very expensive. Think $3000+++. BUT. CASA appears to have a let out clause for RAA type aircraft (described as certain light sport, etc.): This inclines me to believe that he Dynon statement is a "statement of conformance (however described)" as specified in 9B.12 (b) because it is stated in the installation manual that the installation complies with U.S. 14CFR 91.227. and the GPS meets TSO166b performance specs. If this is correct, then it should be legal to use the Dynon equipment to provide a full ADSB out system (SIL=2 ,SDA=3) as accepted by the FAA. What do you think? Is it kosher?

The whole proposal is a waste of time.

But wait! There's more costs! If AsA mandates transponders AND ADSB then add another $4000++ to the costs. AsA requires that any transponder outputting ADSB signals MUST have a TSO'd GNSS position source (SIL=2). The cheapest of those is over $2000. You are legally not allowed to use anything with SIL = 1 on a transponder, I currently output SIL = 0 which means ASA ignores it. I can't see AsA making a Sky echo mandatory either.

It's not going to be obsolete for another twenty to thirty years because it is built in to all commercial jetliners for at least forty years. You are talking of tens of thousands of jetliners. For them to add another unit will require fully certified installations to be designed for each, depending on original configurations including interfacing with existing equipment. As Dick Smith found out, you are talking billions and billions of dollars. Furthermore the system is not stand alone like TCAS but relies on the GPS system.

Just discovered that I configured my transponder to output ADSB with SIL = 0. My aircraft shows up on Sky Echo units and also FR24.

What I think people need to consider here are the questions of standards and reliability. I went into these in some detail a while ago in an effort to convince myself that a certain GPS was capable of meeting the necessary TSO's. I failed. The simple fact is that as long as Airservices or CASA's backside points to the ground, they are NOT going to allow you to tool around anywhere near an RPT jet aircraft from B737 on up, without a TSO'd transponder and GNSS position source (NOT TSO C199) because they have to GUARANTEE separation. To put that another way, they are not going to risk you becoming engine fodder for an A380 because your Sky Echo battery went flat, or it's two dollar multi layer PCB cracked. Folks, it's consumer electronics, not something to risk 300+ lives on. That is why I call it a toy. One that may give you a false sense of security. For example, how do you positively KNOW there is no traffic? Are you sure its position is correct? What if the Antenna has failed? Yes transponders are old technology, so is the internal combustion engine. Yes ADS-B might be better but the cost of doing a certified installation in RPT aircraft is stratospheric. The aviation industry is super conservative for good reason.

.....and further reading of CAO 20..18 indicates No use of ADSB - Out from a mode S transponder unless it is connected to a $2000++ certified GNSS unit. Then of course space based ADSB is coming which requires at least extra aerials. Then supposedly there is an Australian SBAS system which may require a different GPS. And then we find that Sky Echo is just a toy as far as CASA and Airservices are concerned, and anyway airliners don't do ADSB, they do TCAS. The entire ADSB thing is just a useless circus.

transponders roughly $3500 each for ?2000 RAA aircraft? Plus installation. $6 million?

An EC device will get you into class E Airspace and nowhere else. What pisses me off is that GPS equipment that is legal in the USA - accepted by the FAA for adsb, isn't legal here because, well, we are special.........

You can stick ADSB and the skyecho up your proverbial. I spent over $15000 on avionics, I have a transponder and I STILL can't get a compliant ADSB installation without shelling out for a high accuracy GPS ($3000+). CASA killed the low cost option stone dead. Read CAO 20.18. Not only that, we STILL cant get access to class D or C airspace anyway. I am NOT putting a box on the windscreen and fiddling with an iPad in flight for anyone. It is simply too dangerous in turbulence to have all this extra stuff floating around, nor do I want to be head down trying to find traffic on an iPad. Sometimes I feel that CASA and AsA are doing their level best to kill Australian Aviation, in all its forms, stone dead. The Class E proposal is a step in that direction.

Then in the absence of further information, the answer is: “it depends”. Why would you use stainless steel instead of alloy or fibreglass? While you need to constrain the edges of a baffle for structural reasons, why try and connect it to a (vibrating) engine? It won’t stay connected for long. What’s wrong with silicon baffle seal material like everyone else uses? Are you solving a problem that doesn’t exist?

Not only transponders $3000, but certified gps to drive ADSB with sil = 3, another $3000.

Their selling point - the '45psi fuel rail pressure in the event of an accident" is problematic. Rotax requires their EFI engines to have a bleed orifice across the rail that dumps pressure immediately the pumps are turned off. Carburettors plus injection? he worst of all possible worlds!

1. RPT aircraft have TCAS, they don’t use ADSB -IN 2 ADSB is for airservices and GA.. 3. The cost of a certified GPS input for ADSB is at least $3000 and it’s an extra box that does eff all. My Dynon skyview has an $850 gps available that satisfies the FAA but not CASA! As for EC devices, I have a horror of little boxes, iPads and wires all over the cockpit. If the weather gets bumpy you can count on any such junk to end up in a tangled mess under your rudder pedals.

Is it even possible to fly coastal around Australia? I would have thought controlled airspace would preclude it. For example, Townsville, Cairns, Darwin and Perth look like absolute road blocks.

she wasnt a victim at all. She didnt get a scratch. She was "traumatised".

There is a mathematical basis to this discussion which I think it is important to understand (but not the maths) these are termed "transfer functions" that govern how the control input gets converted to an output and the feedback provided. Transfer functions explain the difference between "Nice", "easy", "hard" etc. The best way to explain it is by reference to Mercedes Benz. A cars "feel" is a transfer function of the tyres, suspension geometry spring rates damping etc, right down to the seat geometry and padding. Mercedes years ago put billions into understanding the transfer functions for a very important reason - they wanted to ensure that the average driver could use 70% - 80% of the cars actual capability in terms of braking, steering, collision avoidance etc. without feeling uncomfortable or in danger. This is a transfer function of how the car "feels" to the driver ie feedback through the steering, seat vibration etc. Mercedes understood that the vehicles ultimate performance was unimportant - what mattered was what fraction of it was actually available to mum and dad without scaring them to death. Other carmakers exclaimed that their cars could perform better than MB ...in the hands of a Lewis Hamilton but none of it was available to the average driver because they will feel unstable and at risk long before the car is anywhere near its limits. This is the source of all those "My torana is faster than your benz" stories. I suggest Piper and Cessna by luck and hard work got most things right and the average pilot can make them perform to specification. Not so other aircraft. I learned about this after taking a Mercedes off the road in a 70 mph perfectly controlled 4 wheel drift with ten passengers on board. I had been licenced for two weeks. We were on our wy to a party. Very little damage to car and none to us. If it had been a Holden or Ford of that era we would have hit a tree or gone into the yarra inverted all dead. I decided to learn about driving after that.

KGW, have you logged in to the website and checked your email address recently?

Let’s all do our best to support our new CEO. From my brief reading of his resume, he has very considerable aviation experience. He deserves a fair go in implementing the RAA business strategy.

BFR $220??? My last GA one was $840 - 2 hrs!

I see lots of young tradies with a Dodge Ram or similar towing a $150,000 wakeboard boat. By those standards an aircraft isn't that expensive. I have one acquaintance, in the concrete business, who just spent about $350,000 on his Jetranger overhaul. Yesterday someone paid $4.3 million for a relatively modest house in my old suburb. Aircraft aren't that expensive consideriing......