Jerry_Atrick

Out of interest, what is the average rate an instructor will get in Aus. I see from various GA school sites, it looks like the school gets $90/hr for the instructor (maybe less in a dual flown with a club a/c). When I did training in Aus, the briefing and debriefing time was included in the flying time rate - i.e. no extra was charged outside flight time for the instructor's time. In the UK, GA schools charge about £20/hr on average for an instructor and the instructor gets around £12.50 or so... In today's money, that's around $32.50 to the school and about $20.50 to the instructor - but the student pays for the briefing and de-briefing time for the instructor. Definitely not something someone will get rich on and I have always thought it is ironic that those who will teach people to fly safely are paid the least...

Of late, I have been watching youtube videos of various folks mainly RAA flying in Aus. The vids of people being trained are, on the whole, quite encouraging in terms of safety and technique (as I was taught, anyway). There has been the off duff landing or instructor having to take control - though nothing unexpected in a training environment. But, there have been a couple of things - in the small minority, that had me grimacing, including pumping the throttle on a stall recovery. What is worrying is high-vis vests and keyrings.. seriously? On what basis do they make these recommendations as, in particular, high viz is usually very flammable - not a great combination with aircraft at the best of times. Also, I am not sure, but I have heard more of people walking into turning props than being mowed down - so on that basis, surely high-viz props would be better? Ah, but they would probably be flammable... Gawd - thought it was just the GA mandarins in the UK that were being stoopid. Although mandatory at many airfields, I have never worn one. I once had an irate jobsworth drive in the follow-me car to give me a dressing down. I politely explained if he could see me from the tower, then my normal clothes were high-viz enough.

Don't get me wrong - I am not saying don't take direct action - what I am saying is prepare for it first so when the media (conventional or social) get active, there are others willing to say they support us and are not at best, ambivalent, at worst, tainted by sensationalistic and over-dramatised risks and are pro-over regulation. How long have we had the ASIC? 10 years or thereabouts? CASA have been embarking on EASA style regs for a few years now. In that time, getting those affected on board as well and then taking action would have been time well spent and at least there would be voices heard (which is apparently not the case now). In EASA land, EASA finally agreed for the DGAC (French CAA) to review EASA GA regulation and make recommendations, of which many are being adopted that will merely return us to the status quo of pre-EASA regs. This happened over a three-pronged attack - 1) all EASA countries' AOPAs being represented through IAOPA and lobbying; s) educating the communities that they were suffering due to then massive reductions in flying activity - everything from customs, security guards, refuellers, maintenance people, etc who are not directly involved in aviation but earned a living from it were being affected and things like unemployment are being affected - this led to them complaining a bit to their local representatives; 3) taking direct action through petitions, general media support, direct mailing, etc. The latter two were manly done in France and their MEPs brought it to the EU legislature's notice and started kicking up a stink in the EU institutions, this time working on the detriment it was having on the economy as a whole. Suddenly, Gordeau resigns and Ky launches a review - led by those who were protesting loudest, to review and overhaul the draconian regulations. Point i am making is it wasn't protest alone; it was a concerted campaign that then fed into the political process though both education and direct action. Others that take direct action usually already have some affinity with at least large swathes of the general electorate, or they have some power over the political institutions (e.g BLF of days gone by and Painters and Dockers Unions, etc).

Skippy - agree wholeheartedly with you (well, almost ). The point I was trying to make is that one of the things the government don't have a monopoly on is being in themselves a welfare agency.. The other point I am trying to make is that, at the moment, for the most part, we have our representative organisations all moan and groan at the parlous state of regulation directly to the regulator and through it's own media. And so they achieve putting the regulator into a defensive position and preaching to the converted. The problem with protesting for the private GA fraternity is that it is not a pursuit nor, in the case of ASIC, a predicament that a lot of society has a natural affinity to. The worst thing could happen would be having a protest that is covered and after the protest leader had their 30 seconds of fame passing the message to the tv journo, they cut to members of the public that are at best. apathetic and say something like "Yeah - agree with what they say, but the gov't have bigger fish to fry", or worse, believe the over-dramatic hype and say, "Nah - there's a chance someone could pack TNT into a plane and if this will stop it I am all for it". Plays right into the pollies hands. Which is why broader public support is required first.. Again, it can be done locally and the protests then follow locally, etc. Put enough of shock in at the edges of the B, and the ripple waves will be enough to get change in the centre. It really is a concerted campaign, that starts with community education to drive support to push change through...

My experience of the public service (Victorian) is actually not that much different to large corporations - there are those that are conscientious and want to do the best, and there are empire builders, etc. In my fledgling career, I worked in IT (then EDP) for a Vic Gov't office. Team was small, adept, conscientious and meritocratic with a good user rapport. Some head honcho in the department decides ha can monetise information we hold, sets up an empire and it fails monumentally complete with a damning auditors report mainly because the empire couldn't have been stuffed about what was right for its "clients". About 1.5 years into its 2 year schedule , I had had enough and made the move to the large corp sector. Same thing; teams, usually on the ground, doing the hard yards and trying their level headed best to do everything in their power for the end user/client. Others, who are great at soap box politics, just doing stoopid stuff and making things difficult for their clients/users.. Difference is, somewhere in the corporate world, their performance/remuneration is tied to profit so they sometimes try and put the brakes on this sort of carp; often it is just passed on as higher prices to the consumer as much as possible given competition - government departments rarely have competition for their funds. Rant over and back to topic.... Unf., private GA is seen as a rich-man's pursuit and we have the tall poppy syndrome. I know, esp, for RAA, it isn't the preserve of the rich - but it's a perception. That coupled with a relatively small participation rate relative to population, it is hardly going to be a vote winner for the government to protect private GA's interest. In fact, if anything, the government will use unnecessary burdens of GA to improve its perception to the public it is doing something - in this case protecting the public against terrorism threats - a few people that Joe public doesn't really care too much about jumping up and down complaining is not going to do much, by itself to force the requisite change. There are two things one usually has to do to get governments to eat humble pie and reverse a decision, especially when the decision is trumpeted as necessary for protection of people, given the increasingly sensationalistic and sound-byte driven media these days: 1 Get wider public Support; 2 Get departmental/government support. So how do we, as fat, rich bar-stewards, get wider public support? By wider, I mean not just aviation folk, but business people, workers, community heads,. Find areas where the local GA scene generates a bit of cash - both directly and indirectly and preferably where an ASIC would be very difficult to justify, but has sufficient population to make the local MP feel a little threatened if public opinion in that area would wane. Start the information campaign in these locations - declining aviation = declining revenues = declining wealth/jobs, etc - preferably quantified. Educate people that it is not just rich, fat poppies, but people from all walks of life that partake. Maybe the local GA facilities could throw open days, etc. Get locals thinking - "Hang on, the arguments don't add up and it is costing us as people don't fly as much, less people are taking up the pursuit as it is too much of a faff and for the same reason - more people are hanging up their headsets. Also, many overseas aviators just give up (as I have mentioned before). I am looking at spending AUD $4,400 - $6,000 on a/c rental alone this year in Aus - but if it becomes too much of a pain to be able to do, having a go of flying from the UK to Cyprus will be a pretty good alternative. For the "high risk" airfields, keep the ASIC backed up with effective enforcement; for the low risk airfields, bin it (life is full of risk, it's how we mitigate it effectively and what risk we are willing to accept). The point I am making is if we educate those that are not just in aviation to the real detriment this (and other unnecessarily burdensome regulation) is having on their wider community, we will get support. Now, how do we get the government to support it. The Department that administers it is not going to support reversing their decision on a bunch of people moaning - and internal proponents will use every means available to them to preserve - lest they forgo their next promotion. Unless there is something we can offer up as an alternative that lets them save face, pushing against them will be very difficult, especially if pointing out the stupidity of their ways. There's two ways to do it. One, offer a real alternative and allow them to take the credit for thinking it up as continual improvement. It is easier for them to say something like "We absolutely need a system in place to mitigate the real threat of terrorism and other anti-social ills presented by a small minority of GA. The initial assessment didn't differentiate the threats as they were so wide, however, after successful operation of the ASIC/AVID scheme, and with the availability of better data and new intelligence, it is clear that our resources are better focussed on better security at major airports and more thorough checks of people who intend to fly into them." than "Yeah, we finally listened to a bunch of people who told us how dumb we are and, you know what, they are right". The head of a GA/private aviation lobby group here constantly bangs on about how bad/illogical this decision is or that decision is and how it is smarter doing it the lobby group's way. It's true, but people just get sick of the moaning and start to tune out. Another prong to getting government support is to point out to other government departments that an initiative may be infringing on their turf and possibly making them look a little inadequate. In the case of the ASIC, ASIO already has counter-terrorism responsibilities with one would think at least the Federal police and probably state police as well. So, these organisations should be using various intelligence techniques to identify and where possible apprehend terror suspects, be they foreign visitors or locally radicalised. They will also have handles on drug smugglers and other nasties of society. So, is this ASIC requirement a vote of no confidence in our security organisations? What consultation did the Dept of whoever they are have with the intelligence organisations to properly assess the threat and the potential holes in the security organisations' techniques? And so on. The point is, again, educating other government departments may bring pressure to the department, if for nothing else than they don't want to be seen as not being able to do their job properly, or submitting someone who is bad to a security clearance may force them underground where it is not easy to provide surveillance - i.e. it could hamper efforts. They start talking to the department to see what the gubbins is going on... Point is, moaning won' solve it; education over time will... Sounds a lot easier than it is, I know.. @Kunanurra, no pain here - I am a wining (as opposed to whining) PomAussie ;-) But you are right - there are more passivists than activists . Now, where's the telly remote?

Firstly, Ian, this is a great site. I visit it much more than another forum that covers GA and LAA in the UK, which is where all my flying is done at the moment. The members are refreshingly courteous, humorous and in adversity, usually very civil; I have only read 1 post where it could be considered aggressive or offensive to other posters, but compared to he other forum (no, not PPRUNE), it was still civilised-ish. So well done Re the above, the other forum I am a member of have regular local catch ups with forumites (drinks and dinners usually), and they sponsor of the forum provide branded lanyards (it also advertises them at things like fly-ins, etc). I don't think they are expensive to make, but make it a helluvalot easier to find people you have never met and use useless (or, as in my case no) avatars. Maybe one for each first class member (I will get there) and/or purchase over a certain amount; a few to hand out at fly ins or at clubs, etc. Best of luck for the future...

I had to larfff at CASA being an over-arching aviation body - doesn't it stand for Completely Against Sound Aviation or something like it. Unf, bringing all of the organisations together tends to create more (internal political) problems than they solve. No easy solution, and compared to some of the issues here and undoubtedly in Aus, the ASIC/AVID is a minor niggle (we are losing airfields faster than we can fly between them, for example, and I believe developers are trying to get their hands on prime GA airports in major towns/cities in Aus). However, what the regulators don't realise it is all piles up on the camel's back and makes the faffing about that much less attractive to all but the hard-core in what is an expensive sport/pastime (OK RAA is cheaper than CoA, but it is still costlier than a set of golf clubs and takes up as much, if not more time) - especially in a society where immediate gratification is becoming the norm, etc. So, I suppose the aviation bodies may say its a pain, but there are bigger fish to fry? Trust me, the carp that EASA makes one go through (although it is now getting better since a huge drop in CoA pilot numbers - meaning airfields on the west coast of France were suffering financially through lack of Brits visiting them and started kicking up a stink). I am about to try and convert my now recently expired JAA license to an EASA one (long story as to how it became expired before I converted); if they say I no longer have a JAA license as it has expired, therefore have nothing to convert from and make me to the theory and a flight-test again, I will either finish the Aussie licence and get a piggy back FAA licence (plenty of N-Reg a/c, instructors/examiners and maintenance shops here - although EASA want to make that difficult, too) or go to LAA/Permit (similar to RAA) - the only problem with that is, it is OK if flying to France, Germany, Spain and I think Austria, but a pain if wanting to fly to other countries (ironically they have a EASA LAPL for harmonised LSA type licensing, but can't agree a common tech/engineering standarf for permit type a/c). The point I am making here is that unless the industry stand up and scream, "Hey, your carp regs are costing us money and jobs at the expense of the yanks or someone else", then the regulators will have bigger political fish to fry.. If I was in Aus, with the vast flying distance, I would be RAA - lots of flying space without crossing international borders...

Given the lack of enforcement of the requirement to carry an ASIC/AVID card at non-majors, there is no way that anyone will know who or how many are disobedient, anyway. So getting these organisations to lobby is the only route. Isn't there some over-arching organisation in Aus that binds most of the organisations together (I recall reading it in Aus Flying a few years ago)? A united front with many members will have more clout than fragmented numbers all biting at ankles...

Far be it from me to incite people to commit a crime, however, civil disobedience is often a way to get rubbish laws changed. Try landing at a major airport without one is flirting with danger; but if you flew - I dunno, say Moree to Coonabarabran (assuming not overflying any military or government installations along the way), would anyone really care if you had either an ASIC or AVID? From what I hear on these forums, not having one doesn't seem to be an impediment to gaining access to an a/c most of the time, so not having one is not going to stop a nutter doing something stoopid under the watchful eyes of airport security. By all means - at the major airports and at major events, but anyone wanting to ambush a flight at Benalla is not going to use a light aircraft to do it.

Yeah - they did.. They still look good, though! Although, I read an article in Aus Flying from Jim Davis (Davies??) that when he was a nipper of an instructor, he complimented a Bonanza that landed and the CFI/proprietor (and Piper stalwart) of the school he worked for invited him to compare the useful load of the Bonanza v the Cub (prob. Super Cub) to see which had the higher useful load - and it apparently was the Cub (or Super Cub).

I've got the JAR licence (only got an Aussie GFPT before moving to Blighty of ol', but not a full Aussie PPL). Darned thing expired middle of last month and needed a current medical to convert to EASA (why, I have no idea as I can't fly without a medical, and it is really just a paperwork exercise). Had the medical booked for late-ish December and came down with the lurgy to end all lurgies.. then rebooked for early Jan - work decided, for the first time in about 5 years, I needed a Jolly... in Singas... Anyway, my concern is when I get my medical tomorrow (both EASA and Aussie for the planned trip later this year) and immediately submit for an EASA license (I have the Englursh L6), the CAA will say, because of some technicality, "Sorry mate, would like to help you but you don't actually have a JAA licence as it has expired - so you have nothing to "convert" from - so you will have to do it all again!" We'll see what happens! Blubby flu (though in fairness, I should really have not left it to the last minute). I fear this because, although for my last Single Engine Piston revalidation (sort of like a biennial in Aus), I had all the hours and the hour with the instructor before it expired - but didn't get the actual official reval paperwork until a day after expiry - too late even though I could evidence all was in order; Rules are rules and the paperwork has to be done before expiry!. Thankfully my instructor hour was with my examiner; so two rather rotund fellas took the pencil sharpener with wings (C150) for the reval flight test and thankfully it was bumpy and he was in a hurry - "orrrrr-roighhht...I've seen you do everything a couple of weeks ago.. let's get back to the field.". To be fair, the CAA are pretty good compared to a certain regulator around 11,000 miles sou' east of here. When I went to do my license here, they took a look at my log book, which had quite a few hours in it* They wrote back and said I didn't need to do any more official hours and as soon as the school was happy for me to take the test, do it. I did it under JAA even though I could have waited about 4 weeks and issued a license under EASA, but EASA, as you know Phil, has largely been a nightmare for CoA flying until recently when there was a change of guard.. I was advised by the CAA to do the JAA as EASA would only accept 10% of foreign hours... I didn't want to spend 30-odd hours at £205/hr dual/£185hr solo (Avgas as over £2/litre at the time) getting my license. * When I was doing my PPL in Aus, my "new" instructor got me hooked on aeros. I was out of Moorabbin at the time, with 700 sqkms of training area; when I got my GFPT, we moved to Coldstream, which has something like 2.5ksqkms of trainign area. As I was more into aeros than nava and there was enough to take pax up for a joyflight, I sort of forgot about the nav bit... Next thing you know, out of the blue, I was being transported to Blighty!

Nah, Yenn...Its Somerset that is back in the dark ages re fuel. Just put 1000l of kero in the tank after the ruddy thing almost ran dry! Uses more that a 747 with afterburners. Was up at B'ham yesterday to see the little-un in a concert.. Had a couple of hours spare, so ended up in the Walkabout sipping a can of VB - should have gone for a Crownie - actually - should have gone to a proper pub. As I was driving could only have one - but had the necessary taste of Aus. Next time Phil; Medical tomorrow; then application to transfer my now expired JAA to EASA PPL (as I missed my previous medical due to flu), so should soon have a reason to fly up. Though, the M5 was pretty clear both ways for me

OK - I'll bite... Please no longer hold your fear... Without a doubt, he'll soon be here... He has been working long and hard of late By now on his way to relatives for debate For the weekend, but they are over in Wales Where the broadband's almost as fast as snails So he may be hard pressed to find a slot in which he can tease, taunt and entertain us lot But he will be here soon, of that I know. There's now't much else to do, it's just started to snow!

From my post above, "and let Phil answer that one himself.." with the rolling laughter was meant to imply he had responded... This darned electronic communication... Anyway, he is well and good, just very busy with work.. Shows why he hangs out here (as do I); some of the forums wouldn't mention a regular failing to post for a bit...

er... hmmm... Phil? Was trying to meet up with him this weekend as I have to trot the young-un to a school musical show nearby... and would need some libation to survive it.... DId I get an answer? Will have to keep you in suspense and let Phil answer that one himself..

Thanks...

Dumb-@r$ed question - but how do you send a PM on this site or use it to send en email:splat:?

The first time I flew into the UK, I was here for a week (Aus summer of 1996). The flight back was heathrow --> Dubai --> Singapore --> Melb. When we landed at Melb, except for the fact I recognised the airport, the grass was that fine and golden yellow, I could have swore I got on the wrong flight and was back at Dubai! I had to look at the terminal building resplendent in Qantas and Ansett planes a few times to convince myself we were in Melbourne....

Send it anyway, I'll take it.. So cold this morning, the pitch of my voice went up an octave this morning.... I have to head his way on Saturday (slightly south - Birmingham) but have a few spare hours, so am popping him a PM to see if he is around for a swift 'arff... (once I get the actual timings of when I will have the spare time)...

I can just see it... "Sir (or Madam, to be PC), unfortunately your application for an ASIC has been rejected. You have just been stripped of your nationality. I believe Nauru has exemplary accommodation suitable for you. Thank you and have a good day"...

The ASIC is a bit OTT and unnecessarily targets people probably least likely to commit terrorism. I can understand the requirements at the large international airports as large domestic and international flights are usually the aviation targets (Trends in Aviation Terrorism). Somehow, I can't see real terrorists from organised cells wanting to faff about learning to fly when there are far simpler means of circumventing large airport security and doing some seriously spectacular damage. Even if they did want to use a plane, they would probably learn enough to almost go solo, shoot the instructor and comandeer the a/c, I believe all without the need for an ASIC or AVID. I also don't see the terrorist going for regional airports. Somehow, blowing up a SAAB 340 isn't going to be the headline grabber worldwide that blowing up an A380 is. OK, the lone wolf, or that madman at Mt Isa are probably an issue, but I'd wager anyone that security is easily circumvented or overcome, that the presence or not of an ASIC Card isn't really going to help. What I also know is that it is costing the GA economy export dollars (well, sales, but to foreign tourists, so it can count as export dollars). I have lost count on my fave UK forum how may times PPLs have asked about flying in Aus, When they find out the malarkee they have to go through (and although an ASIC isn't required, the regs seem to point at least requiring an AVID... and then somewhere else about not being allowed to fly unless one has submitted an application for either?!?!). Of course, there is confusion of whether, for a PPL, a temp Certificate of Validation or a conversion to an Aus PPL is required; the regs (or at least the CASA website) says a foreign PPL must convert to an Aussie PPL and Temp CoVs are for commercial pilots; but it seems a couple of EASA PPLs I know (well, they were JAA PPLs at the time) were able to get to Temp CoV... The thing is, for either, its an unnecessary bureaucratic burden and many people either satisfy themselves with an hour bimble with an instructor or don't bother at all. While it won't put much of a dent in the balance of trade's deficit, the number of those on the forums alone that are willing to jump through reasonable hoops numbers around 10 in the last 3 months; and from what trips we were discussing, there was probably an average of 10 - 15 hours flying they wanted to do.. Not much, but if GA in Aus is anything like GA in the UK (i.e. declining), the cash should be a welcome shot in the arm, especially given there willbe people not on those forums as well as the rest of Europe, USA, etc. . The local procedures could be shown to a competent pilot during a reasonable check flight. Most of those who are travelling to both NZ and Aus opt to do their flying in NZ. The UK plausibly has a higher terrorist threat than Aus; Like Aus, there are agencies that deal with it. Unlike Aus, despite some curbs on civil liberties (Terrorist Act or some such, that was actually used to freeze Icelandic banks money in the UK during the GFC),I guess the UK take a risk-based approach and don't see the risk of using light GA for terrorism as significantly high (except for the 2012 Olympics)

Only as a last resort, after going through the regulatory regulatory channels... Isn't that what the press is for?

I agree.. Although, to qualify, it may be the public forum is a place to come to for people with concerns and ask advice on what to do next (but beware the responses) To which the responses for what to do next have been eloquently summed up in the above post. Of course, if it the a/c is unairworthy, the operator is intentionally operating it as such and the [edit] collective [/edit] regulators turn a blind eye, the next point of escalation would be the press and they would have a field day with it.

I can't speak for RA Aus a/c, but there are some permit a/c in the UK that apparently suffer the same problem. A friend of mine is a LAA inspector and some a/c he has seen has made him shudder with fear (first at the thought of what may happen and then second at the thought of the response when he revokes the permit). But, I hasten to add, as a CoA flyer, there are a fair share of licensed engineering outfits that are no better. I wa never happy with the work done on my shareoplane and there was always something that had to bi fixed after it went in for its 50/100/annual, including a stuck flap cable when there was no problem with it before it went in. I also believe there was a recent fatal accident in the US in which the engineering firm fraudulently signed off work that hadn't been done which directly contributed to the accident. Let's hope it is in the minority.

Thanks, Scott.. Watched most of it - even the wife enjoyed them and she hates flying... Routes are planned (currently via Skyvector, so since they have Aussie airspace markings but not levels, etc, will need a map and/or OzRunways.. and find out if I actually have to get an Aussie PPL or can get a temp certificate of validity (regs seem to say TCoVs are only for commercial pilots but I am sure PPLs here have got them). And of course, there's the ASIC...