JohnC

Rick, Forgot to mention 1 point - Jab are using new suppliers and methods for their new / revised engines so it must be considered that this "new" engine has not got any / much real world hours and there may be teething problems, you need to consider that you may be one of the first "guinea pigs".

Hi Rick, Had exactly the same problem, I am building a Europa and can use the Jab 3300 or Rotax 9 series, have decided on a Rotax 912ULS. Statistics and figures can be distorted and it’s generally accepted most Rotax failures are the two strokes not the 912 series, however fail to maintain or install or set-up any engine properly and diligently IT WILL fail regardless of make. I have been on both the Jabiru and Rotax engine courses and certified to work on both, and like them both. I have flown circa 400 hours on the Jab 3300 and it’s a super smooth powerful engine, however had 2 failures and a forced landing – flywheel bolts and ignition coils/system failure. I have a few hours on a Rotax and don’t really like the “busy buzz” sound of the Rotax compared to the “growl” of the Jab 6. The Jabiru is very high maintenance compared to the Rotax although the Rotax is more complicated, maintenance costs will probably be similar as Jab parts are cheaper but Jab servicing is every 25 hours compared to Rotax every 100 hours when run only on mogas. Jab engines have their weaknesses as you will probably have read about, however if installed, maintained, monitored and operated correctly they are pretty good. The Rotax is a better engineered engine from a manufacturer with many decades of experience and linked to BMW as a supplier, and the Rotax is now the engine of choice on many certified light aircraft, military drones and factory built micro-lights however the price of a Rotax is significantly higher than the Jab engine. The Rotax will use at least 30% less fuel and was designed for mogas but only gives 100hp compared to Jabs 120hp unless you opt for Rotax 914 / 915 with turbos, fuel injection and lots of electronics however the cost is now bordering on the ridiculous and the engine is getting very complex. I chose the Rotax 912 (100hp with carburettors) because reliability is my main requirement (I will fly 200+hrs/year and long distances if conditions allow), followed by low fuel consumption, low maintenance and no/minimal tinkering. To summarise if you want a powerful engine “with a soul”, don’t mind high maintenance, tinkering and monitoring, don’t mind avgas (Jabs are happier on avgas), higher fuel burn and looking to fly 50-100 hours per year get a Jab. If you want low maintenance, no tinkering / easy set-up, high reliability, low fuel burn on mogas, looking to fly high 200+ annual hours and don’t mind flying a bit of a soulless “busy bee” get a Rotax.

Thanks for the update, however not what I wanted to hear.

Dear all, can anybody in Australia, or local to Bundaberg, or "in the know" provide an update on Camit? Are there any plans for a Camit resurrection? Or their modified engines? Or any plans (or truth in the rumours) that Ian Bent may be working on supplying modified parts for Jab engines?

See the below advert from a Jabiru parts supplier (parts4aircraft.com) , they should be available in AU Mahle Knecht OC-534 - Toyota/Jabiru Oil Filter Incorporates an Anti-Drainback Valve. We have sold hundreds of these filters both to Jabiru owners and Jabiru service personel. Top Quality automotive oil filter manufactured by the German company Mahle Knecht. Original equipment suppliers to BMW, Mercedes, Porsche, Audi, VW, and many more. The fact is, the Jabiru engine uses an ordinary automotive filter designed for Toyota cars. The brand supplied and fitted by Jabiru is Ryco, an Australian automotive filter manufacturer. Jabiru list in their current Instruction & Maintenance Manual, document number JEM2204-9, "OIl Filter - Ryco Z 386 or equivalent" They also refer to it as an "automotive spin-on filter." Mahle Knecht OC-534 has an anti-drainback valve and is equivalent to Ryco Z 386 in every way. Both are manufactured for use on the same Toyota car engines.

Hi Hundia, before the cold start kit was fitted I increased the bypass jet, fitted new coils, experimented with the coil / flywheel gap, fitted new plugs, rotors, caps etc, however the cold starting was still unacceptably bad and especially worrying when away from my home airfield with a "stone cold" engine, the aforementioned did improve things however the engine still took several attempts with worryingly long cranking times stressing the flywheel bolts. The Bing carb is standard fare on old "kick start" BMW boxers with a conventional ignition set-up and the crank speed is more important for a good spark rather than fuel draw. The cold start kit uses a secondary coil to induce voltage from the battery regardless of engine speed; you could "hand prop start" the Jab engine if the cold start coil had a live feed (Jab use the live from the starter solenoid secondary circuit) and if you were brave enough - i;m not. Jab definitely got it right with the cold start kit as this eliminated the problem, and this is a common problem in the UK with Jab engines in the winter especially the 6 cylinder. 4 Jab engines at our airfield have the cold start kit fitted with no starting problems, 2 don't have the kit and these 2 are often difficult to start in the winter. Only last week it was reported via the LAA that a 2200 engine suffered a failure of the starter ring gear shearing the bolts and detaching from the flywheel, this almost confirms my suspicions that the flywheel to crank bolt problem can be traced to bad starting.

When I bought my J400 (3300 engine) a few years ago I could never get the engine to start at anything below 5C (38F) without preheating the carb with a hair drier - tried every “old trick in the book” for starting cold engines to no avail. Fitted the Jab cold start kit and problem solved, the engine always starts immediately within 1-2 revolutions regardless of ambient / engine temperature.. I also have a small (mains powered) 80W frost heater fitted under the cowl with an insulated blanket on top of the cowl during the winter, this makes for perfect starting with or without choke, and (more importantly) eliminates any chance of condensation forming inside / outside of the engine when in the hanger. Bad starting “hammers” the flywheel bolts, and any condensation will eventually destroy the Jab engine internals especially if not regularly flown.

That's interesting, in August (2016) Camit quoted 18,750.00 AU$ for a complete / full 3300 engine, and 13,500.00 AU$ for a core / short 3300 engine - ordered the full engine just before they ceased trading didn't make any payments though.

Thats interesting, recently a very similar failure was reported in the UK on a Ryco filter, and I had a problem with a Ryco last year - the thred was of centre and it would not seal. I switched to Mahle filters and have used them ever since, Mahle look to be better quality and are standard fit on M/Benz, BMW , Porsche, Audi and VW so prety good reputation.

Deskpilot, Yes couldn't agree more. Our company is Quality Assured, took ages to get, cost a fortune and is an ongoing process of checks, internal audits, external / third party audits, increased, costs etc. however we are better placed in our market and contrary to popular belief most people will pay more for guaranteed quality. This brings me on to Camit, Ian Bent had a good team, knew what he was doing, sorted the issues with the engine and via discussions with him and independent Camit users I was satisfied and ordered a Camit 3300 (to late unfortunately). Camit's quality assurance was Ian's attitude, ability, experience and the fact Camit were small and Ian was hands on at every stage of manufacture, my perception of Camit was "if it aint perfect it aint leaving this factory" - this is the best Quality Assurance & Control you can get. Jabiru are going to have a tough time selling there new engine based on past Quality Assurance & Control issues and now negative customer perception. I really hope all goes well for Jabiru and their new engine is a success because if it isn't they are in serious trouble, and the problem they face is selling enough of these new engines to prove they are reliable in the field - I simply cannot take that chance and that's why I am looking at alternative engine manufactures & aircraft.

Bex and Oscar, I have been following your comments and may I say that you are both correct. We import £100,000’s+ per year of mechanical and electrical equipment from the Far East including Korea, Taiwan and mainly China, this equipment is very good quality, has a five year UK warranty and the failure rate is less than 1% (excluding installer issues). However this equipment is made for big name companies - Mitsubishi, Samsung, LG, Toshiba etc. These companies have a worldwide brand name and reputation to protect hence the high quality as a direct result of good quality control procedures. We have tried non big brand name equipment from China and I can only describe this as absolute rubbish and based on our experiences “never again”, it may be cheap to buy but not cost effective or commercially viable due to the high failure rates and high dead-on-arrival rate. If we take a look at history when I was a lad anything from Japan was considered cheap crap, didn’t matter who made it. Now Japan is a world leader in just about everything automotive, electrical, electronic, etc, etc. and yet they now manufacture very little in Japan – China (and others) is simply cheap labour. This brings me to the new Jabiru engine from China; it may be really good unfortunately it may be really, really bad. I will not take the chance on an engine from China with a Jabiru badge on it simply because I have no faith in Jabirus’ quality control; not knocking Jabiru they are simply not a big enough player in the world market of out-sourced manufacturing to ensure high quality control.

I agree to an extent, however there is without doubt a market for something in between the heavy large capacity expensive Lycoming / Continental types and the small capacity complex and expensive Rotax, nothing wrong with either (don’t wish to start a debate and miss the point). Camit had secured deals with two small aero manufacturers one of which gave testimony (on this forum) how good the Camit engines were reaching 2000 trouble free hours – they had installed over 100. Camit started building an independent worldwide dealer network for people like me who ordered one of their engines, and I have no doubt many more would have followed in time. The big problems they faced were time and investment, I have absolutely no doubt whatsoever if Camit had restructured there business to suit reduced capacity / anticipated short term capacity, found (could still find?) an investor who was motivated by passion rather than greed and was prepared to accept a long term return (maybe provide some business input for them?) they would have, in time, eaten hard into Rotax / Continental / Lycoming’s market share. Then ventured into new markets with innovation, new products, and eventually a certified engine (Camit are creative engineer’s not heartless bankers/investors). The company would have grown and in years to come (maybe many years), they would be profitable and “force to be reckoned with” in the light aero engine market. NOTE This is my opinion.

You appear to be blind to the obvious, let me enlighten you:- 1 – The Jabiru Camit engine was designed decades after the Lycoming / Continental that are heavier, worse in CC to BHP output, use more fuel, are significantly more expensive to buy and maintain, and the rebuild cost is higher, the facts are on data sheets - read them. I don’t dislike them, there super -reliable and pretty unburstable, and I’ve got 100+ happy hours on them, however technology has simply moved on and the market wants a light, simple, low cost aero engine. The Rotax engine is the same as the Jabiru Camit ? Er except for; it operates at high RPM, has a reduction gear, radiator, thermostats, coolant hoses, water jackets, dry sump, external oil tank, and some add- turbo chargers, electronic fuel injection and lots of electronic boxes of tricks that can go wrong - have you ever seen one? Again I don’t dislike Rotax, as stated by me previously on this forum a Rotax will engine my next aircraft – I’d rather have the simplicity and lower cost of a Camit but that option is gone. Auto engines? The key to this is AUTO. These were designed for automobiles, with gearboxes, clutches, driveshaft’s, axles, wheels, varying RPM - very rare to hold your car at 75% power for hours on end, weight not to important – cars generally don’t leave the ground, require serious modification to put them in a plane driving a propeller, and if it does break down you can’t exactly pull over in the air. We will agree to differ on this one cos I aint putting a car engine in a plane. Let me reiterate “IF THE GOSSIP AND HERE SAY IS TRUE”. This is the perception and opinion of many others on this forum, you need to read them. True or not this will hurt Jabiru. “an engine based on a crap foundation that Camit bandaged. Icing on a turd, but still a turd”, your opinion and not mine. I’m glad we agree on the last one because if I’m wrong Camit will find an investor, I will get my Camit engine and everyone else on these Jabiru / Camit forums that appear to be devastated at Camits demise will be happy.

Funny old world isn’t it? Camit eventually created (with little hindrance or help from Jabiru or anyone else) quality world class engines that were light, powerful, economical, reliable, well placed in the market, the right price, etc, etc, and (in my opinion) these engines would have been around for a long time, developed over time into something even better with a wide range of options, and probably more designs and engines sizes. They certainly had a slowly growing future and an emerging market – I placed an order for a full 3300 engine days before the sad announcement, however it must be said they never asked me for any payment. Camit would have grown, profits risen and everybody would have been happy. We are now stuck with circa 1940’s technology heavy fuel gobbling Lycoming & Continental types. Or expensive complex high revving Rotax with limited power. Or a few newish designs that time will only tell if these are any good. Or a handful of oddballs derived from the auto industry. Or a new offering from Jabiru that, if all the gossip and hear-say is true, is an engine cobbled up in their factory from out-sourced parts and suppliers on a cheapest bid basis made by people who potentially have no or little aviation expertise or experience. To answer the question pondered by many as to why Camit couldn’t survive, my answer is simple “greed”. Bankers and investors have no foresight, soul or passion their god is “hard cash” on a quick return basis. When the vultures come to clean the bones they will do so with no thought or consideration for anybody or what could be. “Can we make a quick buck they will ask themselves?” if the answer is no they will break it up, sell it off and claim their exorbitant fees, and the few scraps that are left (if any) will be thrown begrudgingly to the truly deserving in the supply chain. I would like to think I’m wrong, however having seen this all too often and too many times it pains me to say I doubt that I am, unless somebody with hindsight and passion, and not looking for a “quick buck” intervenes. This ladies and gentleman is the general mentality of the modern world we all live in regardless of continent or country.

To Quote an old saying "nothing can keep a good man down".

Dear All, Don't write "Ian Bent off", he needs time to reflect, asses, plan and decide what he wants to do to go forward - this will take time. He has a good product that has addressed all of the 2200/3300 engine problems encountered by many, appears to be held in high regard, knows what he is doing and has years of unrivaled experience, he may start a small scale manufacturing/repair/refurb/ plant, and if he does it certainly appears he will have the support and custom from many unhappy Jabiru owners. I have no idea of what has been going on behind the scene's at Camit & Jabiru, however I certainly detect ill feeling towards Jabiru from their customers, and very much doubt many people will have the confidence (or stomach) to risk buying a basically new untested engine from them. I am in no hurry at present so I will wait and see what pans out, if worst comes to worst unfortunately it will be a Rotax engine aircraft for me.

Dear All, Just for the record:- I sent Camit an order / letter of intent approximately two weeks ago and agreed a payment method, however "THEY DID NOT TAKE ANY PAYMENT", I have lost no funds. This needed to be stated so they can maintain their integrity. JohnC

Ave8rr, thanks for the link unfortunately not what I wanted to hear however at least it is now formally confirmed. What a crying shame when I had little doubt Ian Bent and his team had cured all the problems with the 3300 engine - my heart goes out to Ian. Jabiru's future, in my opinion, now looks bleak - new engine, new suppliers, new methods, new materials and no doubt new rounds technical teething problems on the horizon. Can they survive this?

Tried - no luck.

Dear All, I am aware of the various rumors and here-say circulating concerning Camit over the past few days. I was in the process of ordering a new engine and I have received no correspondence from Camit, (in response to technical questions), for several days now. Does anybody have a definitive or factual answer from a reliable or formal source as to Camit's current position? has Camit issued a formal statement anywhere? and does anybody know whether Camit will be continuing production, potentially at a reduced or scaled down level?

Dear all, may I reiterate to avoid unnecessary panic and "knee jerk reactions":- "Do Not Believe Any Speculation, Rumors, Here-Say or Gossip. Wait For Camit To Officially Confirm Formally There Current Position And Their Intentions For Going Forward".

I was aware of some "restructuring" at Camit and the "here-say" circulating from the USA around July / August, however the only comment I can make is:- "Do Not Believe Any Speculation, Rumors, Here-Say or Gossip, Wait For Camit To Officially Confirm Formally There Current Position And Their Intentions For Going Forward". Camit have spent a significant amount of time, resources and money addressing the problems with the 2200 3300 engines and it is unlikely, in my opinion, they would walk away at this stage, unless other unknown circumstances exist.

Hi Jaba, you have many valid points, however we are now in the "realms of opinions" and unfortunately statistics which, as any politician knows, can be distorted, adjusted or altered to suit any argument, I personally make decisions based on fact. Firstly I fly a Jabiru J400 with a Jabiru 3300 engine and have 400+ happy Jabiru flying hours. My opinion is the J400/430 is the best small 4 seat aircraft available and the 3300 engine is a well designed / well engineered engine unfortunately with a few engineering deficiencies that Jabiru did not address to the satisfaction of their customers, this is my opinion others may disagree. I have suffered various engine failures and a forced landing, the problems started around the 400-500 hours. I have three friends with Jabiru engines and they all suffered similar failures at similar hours, this is fact. (If we want to venture into here-say read from the web and forums, there are plenty “Jabiru knockers”). Camit have publicised all the modifications they have made, I have obtained independent testimonials from many Camit engine users in different parts of the world with run hours anything from 30 to 2000 hours, I have seen a Camit engine on display at a recent air show and discussed in length the technicalities of the Camit engine with their representative, I am currently having discussions with Camit direct and they are providing all the technical information I request and addressing any queries I have. I have no doubt Jabiru are doing their own R&D, I simply don’t have any idea of what they are up to and cannot get any definitive fact based answers. Unfortunately I live 20,000km away from Jabiru / Camit and popping-in to their factories is not an option. When it came to parting with my cash I gave consideration to the following:- Camit and Jabiru basically make the same 3300 engine with various individual changes and improvements, they both have a wealth of experience and knowledge with this engine and they both have the same operational historic data / run hours in the field, although I prefer Camits approach. My experience with Camit and their agents is excellent and they provide a personnel service. My experience with Jabiru is good, however my experience with Jabiru's UK agent is abysmal and I refuse to deal with them. I don’t like hydraulic lifters and never will – “I’m an old fashioned guy” and like to know what is going on in my valve gear. What Camit did to the 3300 engine is exactly what I would have done to address the deficiencies. JohnC

Yes I couldn't agree more, and that was one of my considerations when deciding to replace the complete engine package including all auxiliaries and new exhausts, cooling ducts, revised charging system etc, etc.

Dear All, thanks for the additional replies and information, I am currently in the process of ordering a new Camit 3300 and we (Ian Bent & I) are working to ensure we get the best options for my aircraft - this could be a long process as I can be "a bit finicky and a pain in the a****", however I'm a believer of do your research and put the time in at the start and save a lot of heartache and time later down the road. Everything I have read and heard independently from Camit owners is 100% positive and I now have no doubt that Camit have addressed and sorted all of the weaknesses with this engine, I have also looked at other engine manufactures but my opinion is the Camit comes out way on top. Jabiru engines are having a tough time in the UK at present as failures are becoming regularly reported in the flying clubs, its a shame as this engine is an excellent design and just needs a little more development and improvement. The Camit engine is definitely the better of the two in my opinion as Camit have carried extensive R&D and 100+ modifications as problems have appeared, unfortunately Jabiru have their hands tied-up with certification and red tape, Camit don't. I have decided to replace the complete engine and all auxiliaries simply for piece of mind and to achieve what I want - a super-reliable completely new package.