What do you reckon, What would you do & What would you say?

The following is not hypothetical.

 

Please consider the attached sketch and the following.

 

[ATTACH]10191.vB[/ATTACH]

 

You are at a busy airport.

 

The wind is 5 -10 knots from the direction shown and Runway A has been clearly established as the Duty Runway, with 4 or 5 RAA & GA aircraft taxiing to use it, resulting in frequent departures and arrivals.

 

Two GA aircraft announce that they are taxiing to depart from Runway B, they taxi past Runway A without incident and go to position C.

 

The 1st GA aircraft at Position C announces rolling on Runway B and has a near miss with an aircraft arriving in Runway A, such that a number of aircraft get on their radios to suggest that "that was a bit close for comfort" and that greater care be used.

 

The 2nd GA aircraft at Position C then announces that he is rolling on Runway B and has a near miss with an RAA aircraft that is departing on Runway A, such that a couple of more radios are triggered to record the close shave a make a comment (such as "more care is needed fellows" etc).

 

The 2 GA aircraft that have departed on Runway B then fly close circuits (approx as shown on the sketch) in close company, each time announcing downwind on Runway B and turning close to but inside Runway A where other aircraft continue departing.

 

The 2 GA aircraft conduct a number of missed approach low level close company passes down runway B ............except on about their 4th circuit the 2 aircraft extend (or stuff up) their circuit so that one or both of them reach the reciprocal of Runway A for their base leg .......... still while other aircraft are departing from Runway A.

 

The 2 GA aircraft then land crosswind on Runway B with a combined base and final leg.

 

1 Do you have any problem with what occurred?

 

2 If so, what would you do about it?

 

3 Would the 2 GA aircraft have needed a formation flying endorsement?

 

4 What would you say about it?

 

5 What would your attitude be if one of the GA Pilots was a member of this forum?

 

6 Do you have any comment?

 

Regards Geoff

 

Example 1.pdf

 

Example 1.pdf

 

Example 1.pdf

Not certain where you source your senarios from Geoff!!Seems to be a massive breakdown in airmanship and commonsense ocurring here. Obviously close to a full moon.

It occurred at Natfly 2010 on Good Friday, the source is that I was sitting near the intersection of runways A & B listening to & watching it all unfold on the radio, and one or both of the radio calls that I mentioned, which were triggered by the near misses, came from the RAA's Unicom operator.

 

My own view is that the standard of airmanship shown by the 2 GA aircraft in question is some of the most arrogant, ignorant & unsafe that I have seen (& I'll have more to say about who they were and who they were representing, if necessary) and I'll now ask another couple of questions:

 

A Did they seek or have any permission from the Event to conduct an "Air Display"?

 

B Do the 2 pilots involved have formation endorsements? (I doubt it, as their "formation" was all over the joint).

 

C Is the RAA or CASA going to do anything about it? (And after the grief they have given some members over bugger-all, if not, I (for one) will be wanting to know why not ............... and would be happy to appear anywhere as an eye-witness)

 

Regards Geoff

 

 

Without being there it appears incredibly dangerous. I guess they would have had rego numbers displayed and were using their callsigns on the radio. Any member of the public can file a complaint with the relevant authorities (CASA/RAA), and let due process take it's course. The problem is most people won't, they assume everyone else will etc.

 

I suppose I am saying let's not dance around the issue, report them...if you or anyone else feels safety was compromised because of their actions, this needs to be done. By not taking action it is tantamount to approval for their actions.

 

 

Clearly you know who the pilots are, have you approached them about the incident?

 

Ask questions like:

 

- Were they aware of all the other aircraft?

 

- Did they have comm problems?

 

- Do they know how close they came to the other aircraft.

 

- What was their reasoning behind any procedure used?

 

- Did they have the organisers permission for their impromptu show? They may very well have!

 

That is were I would start!

 

Only once you have all the information can you make a decision on how to proceed, which may then include a report to the ATSB.

 

 

Yep report it or next thing we will hear is we have lost some creditability because of our poor airmanship

 

Unless its raised as a clear complaint against GA pilots it will become an RAA issue

 

Wouldnt Unicom have had something to say?

 

 

Yeah I saw part of the display. I also saw more than one CASA employee walking around so I would guess they saw it too.

 

 

being aware of a situation of concern.

 

You were in a very good position to asses what was going on and you have a genuine concern. None of this should be a GA vs. RAA thing and I am not suggesting that you are putting it that way. Using simultaneous runways like that without positive control, would be a pretty hairy procedure. Unless we think safety, we won't get safety. If I did something dangerous, I could be expected to be reported, and the same for anyone else... Nev

 

 

Using simultaneous runways like that without positive control, would be a pretty hairy procedure.

It shouldn't be, I quite often have a need to use a runway contrary to what other aircraft are using, it just takes some common sense and forthought (aka 'Airmanship')!

 

 

It shouldn't be, I quite often have a need to use a runway contrary to what other aircraft are using, it just takes some common sense and forthought (aka 'Airmanship')!

I don't think you would be doing beat u.... sorry, a series of missed approaches in a loose formation though HH.

 

Agree with Nev. This mustn't become the usual GA v's RAA bun fight that seems to follow on after a fly-in event.

 

 

I wouldn't be seeking information from the other pilots as you could appear to be conducting an 'investigation' so to speak and from dealing with people like that every day, what they tell you will be a lot different to what tell an official investigator. There are also penalties that apply to misleading investigators etc and they have the power to demand information etc.

 

I would report them to the relevant authority and let them conduct the investigation and provide all the information you could, along with any other witnesses for them to conduct a thorough investigation.

 

I'd agree with others though, it doesn't come down to a GA v RAA thing and that just clouds the waters.

 

Did anyone request their intentions or did they broadcast theirs before doing this?

 

 

On the surface it sounds like a person to person talk [behind the hanger] might have been

 

appropriate

 

 

My response to this if I had been there woud have been to put a report in to CASA.

 

At one time I would have tried to talk to the pilots involved, but that seems to be a useless exercise as I have tried it in the past and copped a lot of abuse and been accused of dobbing them in to CASA. That was a case of someone else doing the dobbing. Now, unless they are well known to me I think I would dob them in straight away.

 

If the events happened as you say there should be many others also involved with safety standards.

 

I fail to see how anyone can conduct a circuit within the confines of that part of the strip off to the side of the active runway.

 

 

My concern, (not having been in a position to see the runways, only the airwork,) was the very untidy attempt at formation. Either 1 or both the pilots probably were not formation endorsed, and it showed. Very erratic flying, over a crowded area, sometimes tight, sometimes hundreds of meters away.

 

As to the diagram, doing ccts in those tight confines where one boundry line is the upwind leg of an active, busy cct?. Regardless of permissions or endorsments, that is very poor airmanship. Im sure no real "airshow" pilot would ever even contimplate doing ANY sort of performance with an active runway as a boundry. There's just too many variables, while he may be confident of maintaining seperation with the extended centerline, what about the half a dozen pilots useing the active runway?. There's no way to be sure they are maintaining centerline. And what about joining traffic?..where do they fit in?? where's the deadside for them??

 

Too many questions need answering.

 

On the whole i was impressed with the levels of airmanship displayed by 99% of our guys. Compared to last year, it was a good show. Good Job fella's:thumb_up:

 

 

Does anyone know what the emergency that was declared by an incoming pilot early afternoon Saturday? I was listening on the radio and a pilot called in declaring an emergency and asking unicom to clear the strip. Everything went quiet for a while and nothing more heard. Was very bizarre.

 

Scotty

 

 

Hi Bubbleboy, I can't say for certain but it may have been the plane that lost its emergency window, they were requesting a ride back to Bankstown by any means.

 

 

Back to the original post, I notiece planes going on multiple runways and thought glad I'm not up there. I would defenitely pass this information on to the powers that be.

 

 

Does anyone know what the emergency that was declared by an incoming pilot early afternoon Saturday? I was listening on the radio and a pilot called in declaring an emergency and asking unicom to clear the strip. Everything went quiet for a while and nothing more heard. Was very bizarre.Scotty

Scotty,

 

I happen to think that we were examining a pretty critical issue in this thread, so in future will you please highjack another more general Natfly thread, or better still start one of your own on a new subject, if you want info.

 

To all who have responded to my original subject, thanks for the great feedback.

 

I'll wait until any other replies come back in from others who attended and might not be home until today, then take it up via Mick Poole.

 

But given all of the safety related push by RA-Aus recently, wouldn't it be interesting if this was let slip by the Aus-Kosh organisers.

 

And rest assured that I was not intending for this to become an RAA Vs GA issue. I just differentiated in post #1 for accuracy.

 

And by the way .............. the 2 aircraft involved were the red and the black open cockpit things that were both fitted with Rotec radials ............ and I can only assume that their low close circuits, (and lack of radio calls) and low passes down 18 at Temora were done to promote the engines.

 

I would be very interested to hear from any other forum members who saw what I reported in post #1, or who vary from my observations.

 

Regards Geoff

 

 

I would be very interested to hear from any other forum members who saw what I reported in post #1, or who vary from my observations.

Regards Geoff

One of them had a 19 registration. I thought that it was home built RA-Aus that had that number. He was selling kits for it. I may be wrong, and GA can have it to. one of them was taking a passenger up. I have a pic of it on my camera, it is a bit rough, but you can tell it was the 2 planes.

 

 

Geoff....my humble apologies for taking the lime light from you and your most important thread. What was I thinking. In future I will put my head in the sand and not bother to try to find out facts, as you are trying to do. I saw first hand what you were talking about in your first post but wont bother putting my account of it for fear of stealing your spotlight. I shall go back to the garage and continue building.......

 

Scotty :confused:

 

 

It may be time to seriously consider a manned tower to control aircraft movements before some one comes to grief. If anyone thing that needs to be copied from Airventure is how they control landings and takeoffs. I've seen one landing every five seconds there and that is on the same runway.

 

Where was the Airport Safety Officer(s)? Is there one appointed for the event?

 

Ozzie

 

 

I would be very interested to hear from any other forum members who saw what I reported in post #1, or who vary from my observations.

Geoff,

 

 

I am not aware if the formation fly past was a sanction event or not.

 

I observed the event from the commercial display area approximately halfway down 18.

 

I am not aware of the traffic density in the circuit or of any CTAF transmissions that were broadcast at the time.

 

I observed a turn made by two aircraft flying in close proximity, presumably to conduct a fly past along 18, that gave me cause to contemplate the likelihood of a collision between those two aircraft.

 

 

I did think it an odd sort of thing to do considering the locusts and the varied mix of traffic types and skill sets that would be expected at NatFly. As an after thought, airfield movements are suspended for the duration of an aerial display and no part of the display is conducted overhead of the public areas when Temora museum holds flying days.

 

Dunno what else to make of it, apart from people do weird things...:ne_nau:

 

 

Yep, saw the whole thing, got pictures too.

 

It caused a lot of friction between a lot of people, one was GA and one was RAA registered, not sure about the pilots.

 

What concerned me was they didn't just do it once, but 3-4 times, getting lower and lower and closer together, in my guesstimation, they'd be way below cct height.

 

As for the radio work, I was impressed at our own RAA people and their radio work, some a bit unusual, but all in all I was comfortable flying with them. Whilst others needed help!

 

Having gone up 4-5 times over the course of the weekend doing local flights, I was often number 3 - 5 in the circuit and it was very busy, but it worked.

 

Thought it was funny, one day all the people were arguing over which runway they'd rather use, than the actual designated duty runway. But Sunday morning we had a 14kt wind straight down the same duty runway as the other days, but I didn't see many complaining then!!

 

;)

 

 

I didn't see it so can't offer much, but if there were any regulatory breaches it should be reported to CASA.

 

By the way, there's no approval required to do a formation flight as long as the pilots are endorsed.

 

 

Mia Culpa !

 

Have to say it was me that seems to have offended everyone. In hindsight it was probably not the smartest thing to do given the rough conditions, and I was quite happy not to fly at all,but I do not believe anyone was put in any danger.

 

Those who were there can make their own decision, and those that weren't can make up their own mind based on very sketchy evidence. I don't believe any 'rules' were broken, and Mick Poole did have a few words to say (not to me) but I believe he didn't seem overly concerned. Anyway, if enough of you are concerned, then you should consider lodging your complaints with Mick and see where they fall.

 

I was much more concerned about the procedure on Friday when a series of a/c were all landing downwind for some inexplicable reason, then on Saturday, a/c were taking off and landing on just about every runway there was....

 

As much as I would hate to see Air Traffic Control as such, a system whereby everyone knew which was the duty runway would help.

 

Anyway, I have my flame-proof suit on, so fire away.....

 

Marty

 

 

Marty,

 

First and foremost, good on you for making your post. It's good to see 'the other side' of this discussion presented in an open and honest manner.

 

No offence intended, but that turn really did make me hope that the pilots were up to the task that they had set themselves and to start plotting where they were likely to end up if it went pear shaped. Apart from that, those little radials sounded lovely.

 

Cheers!