Night VFR Jabiru or similiar to hire?

[ben87r]

There’s absolutely no way that night flying is as easy as day flying, that’s just dribble.

 

 

[KRviator]

Most of that is selective and not true to the whole picture I've tried to convey. I never mentioned an off-field landing in IMC That's a pretty desperate situation to face.. . It was only an off field landing at night which in a single engined plane or sometimes a twin, where an inflight fire might require an immediate landing. may be required.

Okay, so perhaps you could clarify how filing IFR helps you find your landing spot over conducting the flight under the VFR? You still can't see the fence, judge height AGL or find that SWER you talked about. And you're not likely to have your visual chart open vs an ERC-L.The only practical benefit I can see in conducting the flight using a PIFR is in case of inadvertent IMC the outcome may - and I emphasise may be better.

 

Fog is more inclined to form when temperatures are dropping. as at night. or evenings. You can't see it at night is the difference.. IFR rated pilots can legally do approved let downs.

Certainly, to the minima, then off you trot to your alternate, as you can't get visual. Same as a NVFR- rated pilot who couldn't acquire the airport or maintain VMC.

 

What you plan to do illegally is up to you.

Who said anything about illegal ops?!?

 

You should have had topographical information to derive your LSALTS..

Big difference between using them in the planning phase and trying to find a landing spot in a hurry in the IFR environment in IMC.

 

Pointing out alarmist rhetoric. If you carry that through you wouldn't train for an engine failure . How can mentioning risks that are facts be alarmist? Being aware of them is part of your duty of care for your Pax and the industry's reputation. Nev

As is managing those risks - which you haven't addressed one iota except to say it's safer under the IFR, with no real justification. The only risk addressed by that is inadvertent IMC (which introduces additional risks that then need mitigating...). Taking that away and most everything else I can see is the same.

[facthunter]

I don't think we are on the same wavelength. This will bore others so I'm not interested. . At the moment I obviously would not be able to convince you of much at all. Perhaps others might take the time to think about it and make more informed decisions than they might have otherwise.. I personally have nothing to prove with all this... It has become pointless. Nev

 

 

[Methusala]

I have been teaching construction industry participants for the past 10 yrs (just retired). This has left me with an enduring conviction that a life lost is a terrible burden for survivors to bear. I am 100% with Nev on this one. The risks are too great, the unknowable factors too many. The human brain has trouble prioritising tasks when under severe stress. We can take a lesson surely from the almost incredible accident on the Hawksbury occurring in almost perfect conditions with a highly respected and experienced pilot.

 

 

[Aldo]

No more difficult than DAY flying

No Nev it's not, in fact it can actually be easier than bouncing around below 10,000 feet on a 40 deg day trying to write and read maps. I also quantified above that I believe NVFR is to extend daylight not to charging off at 8.00pm on

 

What if you drop something in the cockpit?. You need a torch to find it

Of course you will need a torch or as I do I wear a head band with lighting attached (red and two levels of intensity white) as well as 2 shock proof torches.

 

Try contemplating an off field landing at night

Pretty sure I covered that one above

 

I've also flown well over 3,000 hours at night, I'm doing the TALK because I've done the WALK..[

Nev You have way more hours and experience than I have (I only have 2000+ total time) but all of my hours have been hand flown, I have never had the luxury of an auto pilot, I only have a PPL (but that is all I need for business, I never wanted to be a passenger jock), I also have a Command Instrument Rating and most of my flying has been in singles (generally because it comes out of my pocket and not someone else's). I know you have walked the walk but just because some of us are not flying around in shiny 727's doesn't mean we don't know what we are doing or that we don't understand the risks. I think I have a reasonable level of experience to comment.

I actually think we understand the risks better than the passenger jocks because all our flying is below 10,000 feet where most of the crap weather is, we don't have weather radar so any time you are in cloud you are not comfortable, on top of that in this space is where all the other traffic is, so that compounds the issues, we are generally in class G so it doesn't matter whether I file IFR or just go no details VFR I have to be able to find all the conflicting traffic as well. Marginal VFR conditions are the worst with the scud running VFR pilots you have no idea where they may pop up.

 

The methods of determining wind direction you use in the day aren't available at night.

Nev, If you don't have a pretty good idea what the wind is doing with all of the fancy toys we have in the cockpit today you probably shouldn't be flying.

Night flying with the correct approach is not an issue, night flying without understanding the possible risks can be deadly.

 

There’s

I'm not even going to bother with Ben87's dribble, the 87 is probably the year in which he was born, still wet behind the ears, I have children that old.

Aldo

 

 

[ben87r]

I'm not even going to bother with Ben87's dribble, the 87 is probably the year in which he was born, still wet behind the ears, I have children that old.

Personal insults on the internet usually come from the lower end of the spectrum Aldo and don’t help support you point, which is at best rubbish.

 

 

[Aldo]

Personal insults on the internet usually come from the lower end of the spectrum Aldo and don’t help support you point, which is at best rubbish.

Suit yourself mate I really don't care, I'm pretty happy with who I am and what I've done, I'm not invisible my phone number and actual name has been posted here many times, pretty sure it was you that said my post was dribble, feel free to give me a call 0429 674 790

Regards

 

Allan Bougoure

 

 

[Jabiru7252]

I have flown as a passenger in the back seat at night. When it's black down there I wonder what one does when the engine quits. You can't pick a paddock, can't see trees, wires etc. I would not do it myself. Even over the city, it's scary, although very pretty.

 

 

[SSCBD]

I have flown as a passenger in the back seat at night. When it's black down there I wonder what one does when the engine quits. You can't pick a paddock, can't see trees, wires etc. I would not do it myself. Even over the city, it's scary, although very pretty.

We now have ballistic parachutes that can be fitted. Takes a big chunk of the engine failure argument away.

 

 

[Bruce Tuncks]

Jabiru aircraft don't have ballistic chutes. And I agree with Nev and Jab7252. Flying over landable country in daytime in a tough airframe with quite a good glide is much safer than flying over unlandable country or at night.

 

But I don't know what the numbers are on this, it obviously depends on the engine reliability and they are very reliable. So reliable that people actually do circuits where an engine failure would put them down among the houses, when the circuit could easily avoid this.

 

There is another aspect that needs to be considered, and that is the big difference between solid darkness and city lights or brightness in the sky just after official last light. There have been cases where the investigators decided that total lack of a horizon reference was the main cause of the crash.

 

 

[facthunter]

Aldo when you clip your extracts you remove the qualifications built into the original statement .The torch comment was relating to looking for stuff with a torch, while still trying to fly a plane perhaps with no visible horizon. That was my MAIN point which you disregarded

 

Yeah you "shiny B727" Blokes use autopilot's all the time is not correct. There's no autoland function .The autopilot wasn't used in strong/extreme turbulence as it wasn't capable. We sometimes flew with it inoperable. It's an allowable deficiency.. Try that at 33,000 feet. Most times, on climb or descent you didn't use it either as you had to stay in practice to be able to fly low level circling approaches from non precision approaches and ALL instrument approaches were by hand . day or night sometimes as a visual circuit and they are very tight circuits used in bad weather. at the circling minimum for day or night as applicable. On a flight test in the plane or a simulator if you relied on the Autopilot for assistance you FAILED the check. back then.. no If's or buts

 

On other types we would sometimes cover some instruments and fly on basic panel, to maintain the ability to do so... Please don't make the common mistake of thinking only U/L pilots can fly planes. I always kept flying things like Tiger Moths during my "heavy" days and even some U/L's.. Nev

 

 

[Aldo]

The torch comment was relating to looking for stuff with a torch, while still trying to fly a plane perhaps with no visible horizon. That was my MAIN point which you disregarded

Nev, I totally understand that I think you need to re read my original post I said planning was the most important part of night flying and that includes whether it is a moonlit or a moonless night all these things have to be taken into consideration.

 

Yeah you "shiny B727" Blokes use autopilot's all the time is not correct.

Nev, I purposefully made sure I didn't say that you used auto pilot all of the time, but I did say that all of my flying, day, night & IFR was all hand flown. I'm not saying that all of your flying was on auto pilot but I understand the difficulties of flying a jet at FL 330 without an auto pilot.

 

Please don't make the common mistake of thinking only U/L pilots can fly planes.

Nev, I'm not sure where you get this thought from, I'm GA (but have an RAA certificate as I own a Jab also). I have a PPL, night rating and a SECIR

 

I'm not here to argue with you I respect the experience you have but if someone wants to build night hours I don't think you should come down on them like a ton of bricks and tell them they shouldn't do it.

 

I fly single engine IFR and night I understand the risks and I'm prepared to accept the risks and I'm not wrong by accepting those risks but I ensure my planning is the best it can be.

 

Aldo

 

 

[facthunter]

Aldo. I don't apologise for putting up a STRONG CASE against Night VFR I haven't used any false facts in that ...I'm not alone. Plenty of very experienced people have arrived at the same conclusion CASA haven't liked it for years. You guys can still do it.. It's legal. You can get some hours going around in circuits with lots of lights under you ( It's like Fairyland) but a black sky and no horizon is something else. If you want substantial night hours get a PIFR and don't fly singles at night unless its a turboprop well maintained.. It depends on how you manage your risks. You have no flying future if you aren't around.. I also know how hard it is to get hours. I ran stone motherless broke for years doing it. Nev

 

 

[Aldo]

Aldo. I don't apologise for putting up a STRONG CASE against Night VFR I haven't used any false facts in that ...I'm not alone. Plenty of very experienced people have arrived at the same conclusion CASA haven't liked it for years. You guys can still do it.. It's legal. You can get some hours going around in circuits with lots of lights under you ( It's like Fairyland) but a black sky and no horizon is something else. If you want substantial night hours get a PIFR and don't fly singles at night unless its a turboprop well maintained.. It depends on how you manage your risks. You have no flying future if you aren't around.. I also know how hard it is to get hours. I ran stone motherless broke for years doing it. Nev

Nev

 

I have gone and done some research regarding visual flight at night and found the ATSB Avoidable Accidents No. 7 Visual Flight at night accidents. It was interesting to find that over the 20 years from 1993 - 2012 there have been an average of 1.8 accidents per year under visual conditions at night.

 

Here is a link to the report

 

http://www.havarikommissionen.dk/images/Bibliotek_luftfart/General_Aviation/VFR_nat.pdf

 

From the report

 

The ATSB reviewed night flying accidents in Australia for the 20 years between 1993 and 2012. Accidents in visual (night) conditions, excluding those that involved any sort of (actual or simulated) mechanical failure, included:

 

13 accidents conducted under visual flight rules by pilots with a night VFR rating

 

8 accidents conducted under instrument flight rules involving visual flying by pilots with a command instrument rating (CIR)

 

5 accidents conducted under visual flight rules by pilots without either a night VFR or CIR rating.

 

In addition to the above 26 accidents, there were also:

 

10 accidents involving inadvertent VFR flight into IMC at night and/or collision with terrain/obstacle while attempting to flying below cloud at night. (Flight below LSALT)

 

It is not just visual flight rule (VFR) flights that are affected. In general aviation, the approach and landing accident rate for single-pilot instrument flight rule (IFR) flights have been found to be 8 times higher at night than in the day, and night IFR accidents 2.5 times higher than accidents in day VFR flights.ii Flying VFR at night can be expected to have a similar or possibly even higher accident risk than IFR flights at night.

 

Aldo

 

 

[facthunter]

Aldo I think there is much less NVFR done than there used to be. If one has to do a CPL there's a number of night hours required. It's not a lot. My references relate the to early 90's period when I had a lot of contact with people in the Industry. This subject came up frequently.

 

. When I did my CPL (early Mid 60's) most aero clubs had night flying regularly., with a coil of rope in flarepots down one side ( the left) and two each end. If you veered off the side you could almost guarantee you're on fire.. I do, as many others do, believe the "concept" of NVFR is basically flawed. Circuits at places like Bankstown you won't glide back to t he runway for most of your circuit. Day would be difficult but night far more so. Planes that crash near aerodromes with houses right to each fence don't stand much chance of pulling it off.. I recall a flight over Newcastle at night in a Tiger moth . It's like fairyland on a warm night, but we are invincible when young. I also did night para drops when that was quite "unusual". A few people found out what they didn't know that night.. It's a different world.. Nev

 

 

[nathan_c]

Umm, no there is not? For the issue of a CPL there is a minimum of 10 hours of Basic IF training, of which 5 must be in an aeroplane and up to 5 in the sim. There is no requirement to do night hours for the issue of a CPL.

 

There is nothing to stop someone doing a NVFR rating and having night hours before the issue of a CPL, but it is not mandatory. If you are going to make claims like this in support of your argument please fact check them first, its readily available information.

 

 

[facthunter]

Yeah sorry Nathan I just went on MY log book figures. It May have related to my Instructor rating. I don't see it's critical to my basic argument though,. about safety. Nev

 

 

[Graham Pukallus]

Here is a timely article received today from Flight Safety Australia that may bring this subject back to what Night VFR / instrument flying involves.

 

This articles covers the many dangers of spartial disorientation that need to be learned and highlights the importance of Currency, Compentancy and Confidence in your ability to cope with flying in IMC or similar.

 

Don’t believe your ears | Flight Safety Australia

 

 

[facthunter]

A well written article . As good as I've seen on the subject. Thanks for posting Graham. Nev

 

 

[RFguy]

I wouldn't contemplate NVFR without a twin, or assisted power options (battery+EDF), or parachute . How the hell are you going to see the powerlines and the creeks and fences for your outfield emergency landing ?

[APenNameAndThatA]

I wouldn't contemplate NVFR without a twin, or assisted power options (battery+EDF), or parachute . How the hell are you going to see the powerlines and the creeks and fences for your outfield emergency landing ?

Reply

Night VFR will always be more dangerous than day VFR.

[RFguy]

Being NVFR qualified might be useful for scrapping it in on last light due to a bad headwind. I'll have to look at what the rules are there for VFR pilots.

[Nobody]

I wouldn't contemplate NVFR without a twin, or assisted power options (battery+EDF), or parachute . How the hell are you going to see the powerlines and the creeks and fences for your outfield emergency landing ?

 

So don't do it. We fly for fun and no one is forcing you to do it. Just remember that there are plenty of people who do it, regularly and enjoy it. There are also others that would never fly in an aircraft powered by a 2 stroke or one that is not certified. Don't impose your own perception of risk and reward onto others....

[RFguy]

I read the full history on this topic. There are plenty of robust opinions. Both sides of the story and argument for and against have been presented ....

[RFguy]

The web page :

 

https://vfrg.casa.gov.au/operations/night-vfr/checklist/

 

is quite useful.

 

I wonder how well high performance true night-vision image enhancer setups That might enable you to see your empty paddock. Spatial / level awareness means you you need to be able to fly on instruments alone since night vision "goggles" don't provide any peripheral vision.