Methane Hydrate - Very Cheap Fuel

[Flying Binghi]

Looks like all aircraft fuels will be getting very cheap in the next few years.

 

Methane hydrate is basically an unlimited source of material that can be converted into aircraft fuel.

 

Also, most other fuel users will change to the cheaper gas product thus the remaining oil supply will be cheap.

 

 

“...China extracted 861,400 cubic meters of natural gas from methane hydrate, known as “flammable ice,” during a one-month trial production in the South China Sea, Chinese state media reported on Thursday.

 

The gas was allegedly extracted from a depth of about 1,225 meters in an area in the north of the highly contested body of water. The South China Sea is believed to contain some of the world’s most promising deposits of methane hydrate, and China has identified the “combustible ice” as a potential new gas source...”

 

https://www.breitbart.com/asia/2020/03/27/china-boasts-world-record-gas-extraction-south-china-sea/

 

 

 

 

 

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[Thruster88]

Looks like all aircraft fuels will be getting very cheap in the next few years.

 

Methane hydrate is basically an unlimited source of material that can be converted into aircraft fuel.

 

 

“...China extracted 861,400 cubic meters of natural gas from methane hydrate, known as “flammable ice,” during a one-month trial production in the South China Sea, Chinese state media reported on Thursday.

 

 

 

https://www.breitbart.com/asia/2020/03/27/china-boasts-world-record-gas-extraction-south-china-sea/

 

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I will assume 1 cubic metre of natural gas at 1 atmosphere pressure is roughly equal to 1 litre of jet a1.

So they got enough to refuel 4 747's except the tanks required won't and never will fit in the the 747 or any aircraft

[facthunter]

I "love" the term "Natural' GAS. Like as if being natural it's doing no harm.. What's natural about it? Nev

[Geoff_H]

It might be cheap before the government pits taxes and excises, and a 3cent for 3 year levy. Bit it is a greenhouse gas so they will add a carbon tax and it will be more expensive than petrol. Lol

[facthunter]

"Fugitive Methane emissions" often make it worse than COAL which is pure carbon Plus some baddies "heavy metals" that most deep ancient sediments acquire. Nev

[Flying Binghi]

Once China works out how to run their power stations on the stuff - Oz coal is stuffed.

 

Japan is the big buyer of Australian power coal though they also have a methane hydrate project going.

 

No more coal money to Oz..........

 

 

 

 

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[facthunter]

Of course and that could have been predicted. Nev

[kaz3g]

Looks like all aircraft fuels will be getting very cheap in the next few years.

 

Methane hydrate is basically an unlimited source of material that can be converted into aircraft fuel.

 

Also, most other fuel users will change to the cheaper gas product thus the remaining oil supply will be cheap.

 

 

“...China extracted 861,400 cubic meters of natural gas from methane hydrate, known as “flammable ice,” during a one-month trial production in the South China Sea, Chinese state media reported on Thursday.

 

The gas was allegedly extracted from a depth of about 1,225 meters in an area in the north of the highly contested body of water. The South China Sea is believed to contain some of the world’s most promising deposits of methane hydrate, and China has identified the “combustible ice” as a potential new gas source...”

 

https://www.breitbart.com/asia/2020/03/27/china-boasts-world-record-gas-extraction-south-china-sea/

 

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The most dangerous energy game of all.

 

https://www.forbes.com/2008/08/29/energy-methane-hydrates-biz-energy-cx_wp_0902gashydrates.html

 

Methane CH4 is the simplest hydrocarbon. It doesn’t form dipoles under pressure easily and to keep it a liquid at room temperature requires a tank that can maintain a pressure of about 32,000 kPa. That’s a tad more than your average aircraft fuel tank can manage. Low temperature are therefore necessary but you expend a lot of energy getting there

 

The heavier “methane” hydrocarbons such as propane and butane are relatively easy to liquefy and store As evidenced by your bbq bottle. Their molecular structure isn’t symmetrical and the establishment of dipoles under pressure is that much easier.

 

Obviously, the hydrate form itself cannot be used in aircraft because (1) the methane content is only around 30% of the mass of the ice and the amount of energy therefore available in that form is very small; (2) its not stable once released from the pressure/temperature of its source environment; and (3) there are significant safety issues associated with carrying liquefied methane in an aircraft...mix it with air in the right proportions and apply a match!

 

The tanker depicted, if it is carrying methane, is essentially a huge liquefaction vessel with extracted methane under pressure and at at very low temperature.

[kaz3g]

I "love" the term "Natural' GAS. Like as if being natural it's doing no harm.. What's natural about it? Nev

That’s how it comes. Doesn’t need to be “made” like avgas.

 

Largely consists of methane with small quantities of the heavier hydrocarbons mixed in. Usually pumped in its gaseous form because of energy costs of liquefaction processes. Highly flammable with combustion in air producing primarily CO2 and H2O but may also produce SOXs and NOXs as pollutants depending on nitrogen and sulphuric content (similar to dirtier coals). Propane’s, butanes and even pentanes are more stable, less volatile (but can still go bang).

[kaz3g]

Once China works out how to run their power stations on the stuff - Oz coal is stuffed.

 

Japan is the big buyer of Australian power coal though they also have a methane hydrate project going.

 

No more coal money to Oz..........

 

 

 

 

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Sooner or later they will want to drill for it under Antarctica.

[Bruce Tuncks]

There is a university of Arizona prof who says that we will all be extinct in ten years. Due to methane release from tundra.

[bexrbetter]

 

No more coal money to Oz...........

 

I can't remember the exact numbers, but a lot of the coal we export is hard coking coal for steel making, not going to be hurt as much as you might think.

[turboplanner]

There is a university of Arizona prof who says that we will all be extinct in ten years. Due to methane release from tundra.

He must be the son of the Academic who gave a speech around 2000 saying the ice over the Tundra was melting at an exponential rate as the exposed areas of the Tundra evaporated and released greenhouse gases and this would lead to runaway temperature of the land and sea, drowing hundreds of milions of people unless we reversed global warming by, and I think it was, 2005.

[Bruce Tuncks]

I saw him interviewed, and it was about 2 years ago. So only 8 years to go. Gosh I hope he is wrong. And as you say Turbs, they don't have a great track record of being right.

[Flying Binghi]

I can't remember the exact numbers, but a lot of the coal we export is hard coking coal for steel making, not going to be hurt as much as you might think.

 

Good point...?

 

 

 

 

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[turboplanner]

I will assume 1 cubic metre of natural gas at 1 atmosphere pressure is roughly equal to 1 litre of jet a1.

So they got enough to refuel 4 747's except the tanks required won't and never will fit in the the 747 or any[ATTACH type=full" alt="gettyimages-85815450-612x612.jpg]52040[/ATTACH] aircraft

You’re right on the money there. You can pretty much decide whether a fuel is viable by looking at its law per cubic metre performance for vehicles or aircraft. In this case a lot more cubic metres has to be burned for about 15% less power than ICE. The golden era so far for this gas was the late 1980s. The transport industry solved the volume problem by compressing it to 2000 psi and making huge tanks from fibreglass rovings and resin. In that era for some reason people didn’t like calling gases by their real name in the transport industry and it was called CNG, Compressed Natiral Gas. The tanks would be too big and heavy for aircraft. Benders Buslines in Geelong had 105 buses on CNG. All the truck trials failed and Benders reverted to diesel.Within 10 years it was all over. Currently works in gas-fires power stations.

[onetrack]

It's not true that CNG is a failure in vehicles. Currently, nearly a third of the Perth bus fleet (515 buses) of approximately 1600 buses in total, is running on CNG - successfully - and has been, for around 16 years.

TransPerth had a few gas buses catch fire, largely due to faulty installation of CNG arrangements, but they've got a handle on it, and the CNG fires have ceased.

You cannot say CNG is a failure when use of CNG in ground transportation has doubled in the last 5 years, globally.

 

http://legacy.atcogas.com.au/Natural-Gas/Benefits-of-Gas-for-Vehicles

 

https://www.energynetworks.com.au/resources/fact-sheets/compressed-natural-gas-for-vehicles-clean-abundant-australian/

Edited April 7, 2020 by onetrack

[GraemeK]

I was told that 'steaming' (power station) coal is less than 17% of Aus export

Thermal coal exports in 2018 were 54% by tonnage and 38% by value - DIST figures.

[turboplanner]

It's not true that CNG is a failure in vehicles. Currently, nearly a third of the Perth bus fleet (515 buses) of approximately 1600 buses in total, is running on CNG - successfully - and has been, for around 16 years.

TransPerth had a few gas buses catch fire, largely due to faulty installation of CNG arrangements, but they've got a handle on it, and the CNG fires have ceased.

You cannot say CNG is a failure when use of CNG in ground transportation has doubled in the last 5 years, globally.

 

http://legacy.atcogas.com.au/Natural-Gas/Benefits-of-Gas-for-Vehicles

 

https://www.energynetworks.com.au/resources/fact-sheets/compressed-natural-gas-for-vehicles-clean-abundant-australian/

Sorry, I hadn't caught up with TransPerth's buses, but a failure in the transport industy is usually less than 5% market share.

I was commenting in the context of Flying Binghi's theme of a very cheap fuel suitable for aircraft.

Your first (ATCO) link report is in 2012 and talks about 15 million CNG world wide in 2011.

They projected CNG vehicles would grow to 65 million by 2020

They were saying the CBG buses met Euro IV emission level.

 

The second link gave a total NGV worldwide of 16.7 million, so may have been written about the same time.

 

that's about when people started to bail out of the NGV industry here in Australia.

 

I tried to find on the PTA site what the CNG percentage was in the fleet today, and if they were able to get up to Euro V, but couldn't get any real information.

 

In 2005/6 the PTA were working with Mercedes Benz on Hydrogen Fuel Cell buses, but the cost was around 3x a diesel bus, and no one has been able to solve that yet.

[Flying Binghi]

I did not say you can run an aircraft on methane. .....well, yer can, though the problems are as pointed out..?

 

 

Take note the Germans in WW2 ran aircraft on coal....... processed coal.

 

 

My thread starter comment again:

 

“...Methane hydrate is basically an unlimited source of material that can be converted into aircraft fuel...”

 

 

 

 

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[Bruce Tuncks]

Converting CH4 to a liquid is easy enough. Even my high-school chemistry can see the similarity between CH4 and CH3OH. Now CH3OH is methyl alcohol, which we used to run our model plane engines on. You can also get drunk on the stuff, but it has poisonous metabolites so this is not recommended.

I really like the smell of model plane fuel though, it reminds me of my youth.

[onetrack]

Turbo - The current info on Perth buses is a bit scarce, but we currently run Euro 4, Euro 5 and Euro 6 buses. The CNG % of the buses in the fleet has not changed in the last 10 years, and there's no sign it will change in the next 10 years.

There's a 2017 W.A. Parliamentary report berating the PTA for not reducing costs or doing better analysis of route needs - and in the report, it says CNG buses have a lower lifespan than diesel buses, at 16 years.

However, it seems the PTA get rid of all their buses, regardless of fuel type, at around 15-16 yrs, anyway.

The CNG buses are dearer to buy, have lower resale when sold, but have lower running costs, largely due to CNG being cheaper than diesel. I like their exhaust fumes, they are very clean.

[turboplanner]

Turbo - The current info on Perth buses is a bit scarce, but we currently run Euro 4, Euro 5 and Euro 6 buses. The CNG % of the buses in the fleet has not changed in the last 10 years, and there's no sign it will change in the next 10 years.

They certainly say they run Euro 5 and 6 diesels, but the million dollar question is whether they've been able to get CNG past Euro 4.

 

I like their exhaust fumes, they are very clean.

The two key factors are the amount of NOx, PM10 and PM2.5 they produce, these all causing cancers.

The new factor, which will start when and now if Euro VI is gazetted in Australia is CO2 emissions

[kaz3g]

Converting CH4 to a liquid is easy enough. Even my high-school chemistry can see the similarity between CH4 and CH3OH. Now CH3OH is methyl alcohol, which we used to run our model plane engines on. You can also get drunk on the stuff, but it has poisonous metabolites so this is not recommended.

I really like the smell of model plane fuel though, it reminds me of my youth.

Methyl alcohol is commonly known as Wood alcohol and is very poisonous And tastes awful. It’s added to ethanol at about 5% v/v to “methylate” the spirits to deter people drinking it In a process known as denaturing.

 

i used ether and castor oil in my model aero engines but they were diesel type. It wasn’t only the aeroplane that got high.

 

kaz

[kaz3g]

I did not say you can run an aircraft on methane. .....well, yer can, though the problems are as pointed out..?

 

 

Take note the Germans in WW2 ran aircraft on coal....... processed coal.

 

 

My thread starter comment again:

 

“...Methane hydrate is basically an unlimited source of material that can be converted into aircraft fuel...”

 

 

 

 

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How?